Basic income as a human right

Page 6 of 13 [ 208 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 13 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

29 Jun 2015, 2:19 pm

Raptor wrote:

We DO have the right to live, but not to have the means provided at taxpayer expense. Rights and entitlements are two different things.

what's your stance on prison reform if you're so against people being provided for by the state?

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,964
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

29 Jun 2015, 2:39 pm

zer0netgain wrote:

I see it as a stupid idea for a simple reason...you can't cure lazy and stupid by rewarding it.

Let's say you give $10,000 each year to EVERYONE regardless of merit to help them "support themselves."

Can you imagine the economic backlash on the cost of goods and services? You have to have a centrally-regulated economy, which is socialism, which is an abject failure everywhere it's implemented.

Then, you'd have the morons who'd squander that money and still be out on the streets. The solution? Give them MORE MONEY.

It's the very reason the welfare system (USA) isn't working. For all those it does manage to help, many more exploit the system or squander it, and it's failure to cure social ills results in people saying we just need to throw more money at the problem rather than accept we should not help people who are only going to self-destruct no matter what we do for them.

Hunger is a great motivator to make a person get up and go to work in the morning. When all basic needs are met, you have class of people content to live off of what's provided to them. Sadly, this same group ultimately demands that they be given the same as those who have more because they WORKED for it.

You have to assume the reason anyone who's not working isn't working is because they actively do not want to, many people are working and still cannot make ends meet, there are disabled people, there are chronically homeless who have trouble finding jobs due to no address, no car, no nice work clothes, unkempt appearance, smell, years of being out of the work force...maybe they don't have a state issued I.D, have lost their birth certificate ect.....no amount of 'hunger' is going to help those people. Well not to mention technically being hungry and/or malnourished and what not is actually counterproductive to any kind of work. But I imagine with the universal basic income there would be opportunities to gain other incentives or more money through working...hell maybe they could even get rid of some of the countless barriers to working many people face. Either way though people could still work harder for more, wilst lazy people could be content on the basic minimum, and those in desperate situations would finally have a little money to work with. Attitudes in society may need to change....perhaps doing things for the common good should be encouraged, like at an earlier age. Instead you get taught in school how someone has to be the best...and many get the idea you should only do things if you get a direct monetary reward for it.

_________________
We won't go back.

ctte2112
Butterfly

Joined: 28 Jun 2015
Age: 27
Posts: 9

29 Jun 2015, 3:52 pm

Raptor wrote:

ctte2112 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Quote:

I'd like to live in a world where this is a thing, where each person despite their financial status is given a monthly income from the government to cover basic expenses like food and shelter.

As if we don't already have enough slackers as it is with our present welfare system.....
No thanks.

This reasoning only makes sense if you believe that capitalism actually rewards people for the work they do. A lot of people are trying the best they can and still need government assistance. There are people working two jobs who are still struggling.

Here you're not talking about slackers. By slackers I mean those who won't make an honest effort to find work even in the best of economies.

You're missing my point. Free market capitalism clearly doesn't adequately reward people for their work, or no one who works would have trouble financially. That there are a some people (far from a majority) who choose not to work does not negate that fact, and it is a horrible excuse for continuing this kind of exploitation when we have a solution for it.

Quote:

The vast majority musicians, writers, and artists are paid so little for their work that they are forced to work a second job.

That would tell me that the above arent exactly good career fields to be in.

But it shouldn't be that way. Anyone who is interested in engineering, medicine, law, or physics, for example, can pursue that interest and will most likely be paid well enough that they can live comfortably. A basic income would help give musicians, writers, and artists that same chance.

Quote:

Is life not a human right? I think it's despicable that our current system exploits the poor while doing nothing to actually help them. A basic income would finally fulfill the Constitution's promises of "life, liberty, and property".

We DO have the right to live, but not to have the means provided at taxpayer expense.

The millionaires and billionaires can afford a tax increase.

Quote:

Rights and entitlements are two different things.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitlement

"Entitlement: the condition of having a right to have, do, or get something."

I believe that all people are entitled to the right to life, regardless of their economic class.

The most common cause of homelessness is job loss:
http://www.homelesshouston.org/homelessness-101/

A universal basic income could change that.

_________________
Autism-Spectrum Quotient: 41
Neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 164 of 200
Neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 34 of 200

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

30 Jun 2015, 2:12 am

Fugu wrote:

Raptor wrote:

We DO have the right to live, but not to have the means provided at taxpayer expense. Rights and entitlements are two different things.

what's your stance on prison reform if you're so against people being provided for by the state?

If you don't pay us to be good we'll be naughty, in other words.... :roll:

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

30 Jun 2015, 2:24 am

ctte2112 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

ctte2112 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Quote:

I'd like to live in a world where this is a thing, where each person despite their financial status is given a monthly income from the government to cover basic expenses like food and shelter.

As if we don't already have enough slackers as it is with our present welfare system.....
No thanks.

Here you're not talking about slackers. By slackers I mean those who won't make an honest effort to find work even in the best of economies.

So who's gonna pay for this derelict's utopia?

ctte2112 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

ctte2112 wrote:

The vast majority musicians, writers, and artists are paid so little for their work that they are forced to work a second job.

That would tell me that the above arent exactly good career fields to be in.

If they were good enough at it to make good money then it stands to reason that they would make good money at it. In the meantime get a real job to pay the bills.
Don't confuse hobbies with professions.

ctte2112 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

ctte2112 wrote:

We DO have the right to live, but not to have the means provided at taxpayer expense.

The millionaires and billionaires can afford a tax increase.

Quote:

Rights and entitlements are two different things.

Don't hold your breath...

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

30 Jun 2015, 10:34 am

Raptor wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Raptor wrote:

We DO have the right to live, but not to have the means provided at taxpayer expense. Rights and entitlements are two different things.

what's your stance on prison reform if you're so against people being provided for by the state?

If you don't pay us to be good we'll be naughty, in other words.... :roll:

what is that supposed to mean?

OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

01 Jul 2015, 3:42 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Would it be allowed to save money from the basic income? I currently have SSI which provides me some money to live on...but its set up in such a way I'd be penalized for saving more than say 2,000 dollars I always have to have under that in my checking/savings. So yeah I can't really like start saving up on my SSI to try and build up a little money to get something started for me, or eventually just buy a house which doesn't serve me too well. In theory I like this idea of the universal basic income...but it would depend on how it actually plays out as well. I mean if the basic income is granted, there aren't any archaic limits on saving/saving to invest then it would be a good way to give everyone a fair shot to better themselves...and it wouldn't be so much risking 'everything' because if they took a risk, it backfired they'd still have the basic income to fall back on. It would prevent someone from ending up on the streets with no financial means to survive...not sure it would totally stop homelessness, but it might reduce chronic/long term homelessness or at least give some of those individuals a better quality of life.

You can save money without putting it in an account. Saving cash isn't a popular idea any longer, mainly because it's at risk of being lost in a robbery or fire but you can still do it. If you want to start saving cash then rent a safe deposit box at the bank and put it in there. Put your important documents in it too, so if the SSI people ask what it's for you can truthfully tell them "documents". It's also none of their business what is in there.

If it's the interest on the savings that you want, there are other ways to go about that too. You could save cash and then buy gold with it and put in your box, or you could buy euros or other foreign money and exchange it later when the price goes up. Of course both are more risky than saving hard cash in there, but it's possible. Why not just do that?

You can also earn cash under the table from cleaning for people or babysitting, etc. Or you can make and sell things for cash. You can add that to your savings as well.

There are tons of ways around the rules, you just have to look for them and be willing to do it.

_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com

OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

01 Jul 2015, 3:44 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

We DO have the right to live, but not to have the means provided at taxpayer expense. Rights and entitlements are two different things.

Well what really costs taxpayers more in the end though...supporting social programs or something like a universal basic income. Or what it would cost them without all that...due to increased medical costs, higher crime rate due to more general desperation among the poor, weaker infrastructure, building even more prisons to house even more criminals as well as mentally ill without resources to defend themselves legally...all these kinds of issues in turn cost the tax-payer a lot more than simply having a system that supports its people, including its poor.

It doesn't cost more than giving everybody in the country ten grand a year.

Also, I am very much in favor of prison industries. Have prisoners work at in house factories, farms, etc which make products that are sold and support the prisons. There is nothing wrong with that.

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

01 Jul 2015, 3:52 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:

Also, I am very much in favor of prison industries. Have prisoners work at in house factories, farms, etc which make products that are sold and support the prisons. There is nothing wrong with that.

that is a very dangerous slippery slope that leads to something akin to the workhouses in Dickensian times. indentured servitude and slavery by any other name... having one's freedom taken away is punishment enough in any civilized society, IMHO.

quiet_dove
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 28 May 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 290
Location: Massachusetts

01 Jul 2015, 4:03 pm

auntblabby wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

Also, I am very much in favor of prison industries. Have prisoners work at in house factories, farms, etc which make products that are sold and support the prisons. There is nothing wrong with that.

I actually disagree. I live near a prison farm, and prisoners there are treated quite well. They're not overworked, and they have a choice of what sort of work they want to do, whether they want to learn to cook (the prison actually has a restaurant that you can go to where you get to eat the farm-fresh food the prisoners have made), help out at the farm, pick up trash on the side of the road, or even train service dogs. (There's a program called NEADS that gives the prisoners the opportunity to participate in training service dogs for deaf/blind/disabled people.)

_________________
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus

Last edited by quiet_dove on 01 Jul 2015, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

01 Jul 2015, 4:07 pm

quiet_dove wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

Also, I am very much in favor of prison industries. Have prisoners work at in house factories, farms, etc which make products that are sold and support the prisons. There is nothing wrong with that.

I actually disagree. I live right next to a prison farm, and prisoners there are treated quite well. They're not overworked, and they have a choice of what sort of work they want to do, whether they want to learn to cook (the prison actually has a restaurant that you can go to where you get to eat the farm-fresh food the prisoners have made), help out at the farm, pick up trash on the side of the road, or even train service dogs. (There's a program called NEADS that gives the prisoners the opportunity to participate in training service dogs for deaf/blind/disabled people.)

the problem is when it is compulsory AND for the profit of the prison. if there is to be forced labor, at least let it go towards the fiduciary servicing of a fund meant for the victims only.

quiet_dove
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 28 May 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 290
Location: Massachusetts

01 Jul 2015, 4:10 pm

auntblabby wrote:

quiet_dove wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

Also, I am very much in favor of prison industries. Have prisoners work at in house factories, farms, etc which make products that are sold and support the prisons. There is nothing wrong with that.

the problem is when it is compulsory AND for the profit of the prison. if there is to be forced labor, at least let it go towards the fiduciary servicing of a fund meant for the victims only.

You know, I didn't even see that you were talking about for-profit prisons specifically. I'm strongly against those, so just pretend I never said anything. (God, I hate how easy it is for me to skip over words when reading. This is probably the 10,000th time I've done this sort of thing.)

_________________
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." - Albert Camus

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

01 Jul 2015, 4:18 pm

quiet_dove wrote:

no worries, sunshine :flower:

I misread things all the time also and misconstrue what people tell me. :oops:

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

01 Jul 2015, 4:19 pm

I skip over words too often also, rather like a noise-ridden bit stream that comes out at the other end missing things. :oops:

Spiderpig
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,893

01 Jul 2015, 4:42 pm

The thing is, if they treat prisoners too well, some people will commit crimes so they'll be sent there, escaping a life of misery outside.

_________________
The red lake has been forgotten. A dust devil stuns you long enough to shroud forever those last shards of wisdom. The breeze rocking this forlorn wasteland whispers in your ears, “Não resta mais que uma sombra”.

OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

01 Jul 2015, 4:51 pm

auntblabby wrote:

OliveOilMom wrote:

Also, I am very much in favor of prison industries. Have prisoners work at in house factories, farms, etc which make products that are sold and support the prisons. There is nothing wrong with that.

There is a big difference between someone whose only "crime" is being poor and someone who has actually committed a crime. There is nothing wrong with making convicts pull their own weight. Prison is punishment, not therapy.

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com

Page 6 of 13 [ 208 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 13 Next

Jump to:

Similar Topics
Counseling for Austic People Seeking Income? in Work and finding a Job	31 Dec 2024, 12:20 pm HabitatBranch
BASIC creator Thomas Kurtz R.I.P. in Computers, Math, Science, and Technology	30 Nov 2024, 3:48 pm ToughDiamond
The Human Brain in Television, Film, and Video	30 Nov 2024, 9:36 pm Gentleman Argentum
A Newly Identified Species of Human May Have Been More Smart in News and Current Events	06 Dec 2024, 3:30 pm Kraichgauer

Basic income as a human right Post Reply New Topic

Basic income as a human right