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What do you think about abortion

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wilburforce
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06 Dec 2015, 2:33 pm

Mikah wrote:
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If the fetus cannot survive long outside the womb and can only expect to live a very short, unpleasant, and painful life, then who does forcing that child to go through that serve, God, or selfish ignorant men like yourself who think they should be allowed to dictate how a mother makes a very difficult decision with her own body?


It's not our call to make, opening the door to aborting imperfect children will take us down such a dark road, a road we are more or less on already. Kids are already aborted for having Down's syndrome, minor defects, even for the crime of being female. How long before we can detect autism or homosexuality in the womb? If you are betting that children won't be aborted for those reasons, you will be sadly disappointed.


The bottom line is, in rational countries that allow legal abortion, you have no say over what women do with their bodies. Full stop. Your discomfort with the idea is pointless because it's not going to change the legality of abortion. Here in Canada, there is no way the public would ever allow our laws to change to make abortion illegal again--too many women would fight it, and this has been shown again and again any time any conservative politician even tries to bring up abortion in public discourse. They are uniformly shouted down because the majority of Canadians realise it is a woman's choice and no one else's business, and making abortions illegal only harms the population and helps no one. You can whine and complain all you like about how unfair it is that women have self-determination and autonomy over what happens in their bodies, but it's not going to change so you are basically just pissing into the wind. Wasted breath, wasted time typing meaningless words on a screen--that's all your opinion on abortion is.



pawelk1986
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06 Dec 2015, 4:34 pm

wilburforce wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
Lockheart wrote:
To get back to the original blog post, all I see is someone seizing on an extreme example and putting the worst possible spin on it to justify the position that no abortion should ever take place anywhere, any time, for any reason.

The assumption in the blog post that this was a 'eugenic' abortion is just that: an assumption. None of us, including the author of the blog, were there when the doctor gave his or her prognosis. None of us heard the conversations the parents had with each other and the various specialists. We can't know if they terminated because they wanted a perfect baby. They could just as easily have made the decision because they didn't want to bring a child into the world to suffer. According to the newspaper article the child had 'a congenital heart defect that would require years of operations, if he survived at all'. If that's so, we're not talking about getting rid of a child with a harelip or a missing ear.

In reality the parents probably considered a number of factors before making their choice. Again, we don't know what they were, but it's no great leap to say that it must have been a horrible decision. These were clearly much-wanted children, as they were already named and had been carried to 32 weeks. To then lose them both due to a terrible medical mistake - I feel nothing but compassion for their parents. It makes me feel sad and uncomfortable, not to mention angry, that so many people have rushed to judgement.


I just do not like the fact that someone decides to have an abortion only for the fact that potential child may be sick, as if disabled children do not deserve it to be born :(


If the fetus cannot survive long outside the womb and can only expect to live a very short, unpleasant, and painful life, then who does forcing that child to go through that serve, God, or selfish ignorant men like yourself who think they should be allowed to dictate how a mother makes a very difficult decision with her own body?


Maybe i'm an Ignorant,
maybe I should not speak on this issue because it concerns women and I'm a man, but we have freedom of speech, and I have the same right to speak on women's issues as women have the right to speak in the male cases.

I understand abortion in case of rape, or even to the fact that women can not afford the birth of a child, but I do not like abortion only for the fact that a child has a genetic defect, if we agree on this, then the future of ADHD or autism (which I, and most of the users of this forum suffering) can also be a prerequisite for abortion.



wowiexist
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06 Dec 2015, 4:45 pm

It seems to me that someones position on abortion depends on whether they think a fetus is a person or if they believe it is just an extension of the woman's body. Unless everyone agrees whether it's either one or the other the abortion debate will be ongoing in my opinion.



K_Kelly
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06 Dec 2015, 6:29 pm

I use to be very anti-abortion until it came to light that anti-abortion was associated with extremism.



wilburforce
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06 Dec 2015, 6:33 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
Maybe i'm an Ignorant,
maybe I should not speak on this issue because it concerns women and I'm a man, but we have freedom of speech, and I have the same right to speak on women's issues as women have the right to speak in the male cases.

I understand abortion in case of rape, or even to the fact that women can not afford the birth of a child, but I do not like abortion only for the fact that a child has a genetic defect, if we agree on this, then the future of ADHD or autism (which I, and most of the users of this forum suffering) can also be a prerequisite for abortion.


You can express your opinion all you like. I'm just telling you that it's rather pointless, as legalisation of abortion is spreading through the developed world and will only continue to do so because it's obvious to any reasonable person that it should be a woman's choice what happens to her body. So express away, just don't expect it to change anything or for women to care about it.



wilburforce
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06 Dec 2015, 6:35 pm

wowiexist wrote:
It seems to me that someones position on abortion depends on whether they think a fetus is a person or if they believe it is just an extension of the woman's body. Unless everyone agrees whether it's either one or the other the abortion debate will be ongoing in my opinion.


Not with feminist men and women--not in places where it's accepted that it's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. You guys can "debate" all you like, but it won't change the legality of abortion so it's really just a lot of hot air you're blowing around.



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06 Dec 2015, 8:37 pm

Another endless philosophic debate on the alleged morality/immorality of a human act.

:roll:


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Drake
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06 Dec 2015, 9:04 pm

wowiexist wrote:
It seems to me that someones position on abortion depends on whether they think a fetus is a person or if they believe it is just an extension of the woman's body. Unless everyone agrees whether it's either one or the other the abortion debate will be ongoing in my opinion.

I view the fetus as a person but I view abortion as a necessary evil.

It's quite a relief to me that my beliefs fall in line with the law.

On the original topic the only thing that really turns my stomach is someone playing breeder like with an animal, wanting a baby tailored to their desires in the same way as picking out a dog. I would draw the line there. I think it's reasonable to expect to be giving birth to a single "normal" child and to plan for that. I'm sure as autistics many of you are aware of the considerable added strain you put on your parent/s that simply wouldn't have been there if you were NT. I certainly am. I don't think people should have to be forced to make that kind of parenting commitment if they're not willing or ready for that.

Also, when someone who's had an abortion acts like it was a good thing or an empowering thing, that disgusts me. No, you just ended a human life. It's nothing to be proud of. It's just something you had to do at best. It also really creeps me out if someone treats it really casually. Like the same as cooking a meal or doing the laundry.



wowiexist
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06 Dec 2015, 9:07 pm

wilburforce wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
It seems to me that someones position on abortion depends on whether they think a fetus is a person or if they believe it is just an extension of the woman's body. Unless everyone agrees whether it's either one or the other the abortion debate will be ongoing in my opinion.


Not with feminist men and women--not in places where it's accepted that it's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. You guys can "debate" all you like, but it won't change the legality of abortion so it's really just a lot of hot air you're blowing around.


You seem to have missed my entire point. If one believe that a fetus is a human life then the fetus is a separate person, not just a part of the woman's body. Plus I did not state my position one way or the other. I am just saying that it is a neverending argument



wilburforce
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06 Dec 2015, 9:42 pm

wowiexist wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
It seems to me that someones position on abortion depends on whether they think a fetus is a person or if they believe it is just an extension of the woman's body. Unless everyone agrees whether it's either one or the other the abortion debate will be ongoing in my opinion.


Not with feminist men and women--not in places where it's accepted that it's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. You guys can "debate" all you like, but it won't change the legality of abortion so it's really just a lot of hot air you're blowing around.


You seem to have missed my entire point. If one believe that a fetus is a human life then the fetus is a separate person, not just a part of the woman's body. Plus I did not state my position one way or the other. I am just saying that it is a neverending argument


It's not a separate person though because it exists physically inside a woman's body and relies on her organs to survive--a grown human woman who gets to decide whether she wants to continue that pregnancy or not, however much you think the clump of cells has more say than the grown-ass human woman does. Thankfully the law ignores such idiotic assertions that cell clumps have more rights than actual live women do.



wowiexist
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06 Dec 2015, 10:55 pm

wilburforce wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
It seems to me that someones position on abortion depends on whether they think a fetus is a person or if they believe it is just an extension of the woman's body. Unless everyone agrees whether it's either one or the other the abortion debate will be ongoing in my opinion.


Not with feminist men and women--not in places where it's accepted that it's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. You guys can "debate" all you like, but it won't change the legality of abortion so it's really just a lot of hot air you're blowing around.


You seem to have missed my entire point. If one believe that a fetus is a human life then the fetus is a separate person, not just a part of the woman's body. Plus I did not state my position one way or the other. I am just saying that it is a neverending argument


It's not a separate person though because it exists physically inside a woman's body and relies on her organs to survive--a grown human woman who gets to decide whether she wants to continue that pregnancy or not, however much you think the clump of cells has more say than the grown-ass human woman does. Thankfully the law ignores such idiotic assertions that cell clumps have more rights than actual live women do.


My point is that there are people who would agree with you but not everyone does.



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07 Dec 2015, 12:28 am

Just because many developed/western countries allow something doesn't mean it is moral or right. For example, many western countries promoted racial segregation at one point, and still do sometimes today.

Anyone who says America is being an irrational and uncivilized country is being a snob. Stop it.



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07 Dec 2015, 4:51 am

Its a shame the accidentally terminated the healthy one. I don't really think its a sign from god, just bad luck. s**t just happens sometimes. As a whole, I think abortions are a good thing, whether for terminating fetuses that will have severe illnesses or infants that a woman is economically and/or psychologically incapable of taking care of, whether its a baby that's conceived from a rape or a baby that's conceived too young. I would much rather terminate a fetus rather than force a human being to have to grow up in a psychologically and spiritually damaging environment.



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07 Dec 2015, 5:05 am

Mikah wrote:
Quote:
If the fetus cannot survive long outside the womb and can only expect to live a very short, unpleasant, and painful life, then who does forcing that child to go through that serve, God, or selfish ignorant men like yourself who think they should be allowed to dictate how a mother makes a very difficult decision with her own body?


It's not our call to make, opening the door to aborting imperfect children will take us down such a dark road, a road we are more or less on already. Kids are already aborted for having Down's syndrome, minor defects, even for the crime of being female. How long before we can detect autism or homosexuality in the womb? If you are betting that children won't be aborted for those reasons, you will be sadly disappointed.


On the contrary, it could dramatically increase quality of life as well. I think its arguably more ethical to terminate a pregnancy upfront than to allow someone to have to face extreme hardship in life. It basically circumvents the whole Malthusian dilemma.



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07 Dec 2015, 3:05 pm

Mikah wrote:
Quote:
If the fetus cannot survive long outside the womb and can only expect to live a very short, unpleasant, and painful life, then who does forcing that child to go through that serve, God, or selfish ignorant men like yourself who think they should be allowed to dictate how a mother makes a very difficult decision with her own body?


It's not our call to make, opening the door to aborting imperfect children will take us down such a dark road, a road we are more or less on already. Kids are already aborted for having Down's syndrome, minor defects, even for the crime of being female. How long before we can detect autism or homosexuality in the womb? If you are betting that children won't be aborted for those reasons, you will be sadly disappointed.



Finally someone normal thinking, I'm sorry I did not notice your post earlier :D



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07 Dec 2015, 5:10 pm

Depends on your definition of normal. You have a strong opinion about something that will never concern you.


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