I hate feminazis

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Well she does have the right to speak in public spaces and hold up signs and shout with a megaphone! Not-to-mention babble her BS on social media. But an academic or even a corporate institution has the right to set standards about who is invited to be a speaker and what the limits are to the things they can say. So her right to express her views without legal prosecution does not mean that students have to put up with her speaking publicly on *their* campus.

Freedom of speech is a descriptive right: It does not entitle you to anything but is there to protect you from legal prosecution for saying things that someone else finds offensive. But it does not guarantee that there will be no social consequences to saying certain things.

I wasn't talking about Ottawa, I was talking about Toronto, and the disproportionately large percentage of censorious internet feminists who seem to originate there.

Except it isn't *their* campus. The very notion of protesting to have speech you disagree with eliminated from platforms that you mistakenly believe belong to you is, frankly, abhorrent. One cannot be in favour of free speech whilst simultaneously campaigning against it.



And this glib technicality is precisely how those students justify tearing down the foundations that their rights are built upon to themselves, each other and to the world in general. "We believe in legally protected speech but we don't believe in letting people we don't agree with speak on a platform near us, even though we could take perfectly reasonable steps to not listen to that speech by (e.g.) not going to the talk."

Now, can you see why some of us might be even just a little bit uncomfortable with how authoritarian sounding that is?

I think it is patently absurd that Greer is culpable for people committing suicide, sorry but that is not how culpability works. I'm pretty doubtful that most people know who she is. Secondly it is reasonable to assume that general attitudes toward trans people can affect their mental state, however these feminist groups are far from empowering these people or themselves.

Their approach to mental health is really poor advice, it reinforces the idea that trans people are damaged and need constant protection. That is not freedom. It doesn't help them empower themselves, it treats them like wounded animals.

It goes against all what is know about operand conditioning, learnt behaviour and imprinting. It pretty much everything we know about animal behaviour.

I'm not recommending a baptism of fire, it is a gradual approach that works best. However in the world you simply cannot control everything, you shouldn't give that impression becuase it is not realistic, they could be left with no coping strategy.

Also they are mixing up different mental illnesses an amalgamating them together. Originally safe spaces and trigger warning were for PTSD even though this is not a good approach long term for the treatment of PTSD. Now it has all be generalised, people are not the same they react to things differently. People are being taught to be victims rather than to break free from victimhood. This is prolonging not helping their suffering.

If you call me a "victim blamer" for saying this, you are not understanding what I'm saying. I care about them. I don't think they deserve abuse, or discrimination. I want them to be be able to deal with that better and not put up with it, at the same time deal with general attitudes which can be backwards sometimes and challenge perceptions. They won't be able to stand up to it if they are treated as damaged. It is not a position of strength.

Someone like Aung San Suu Kyi and Nelson Mandela they were locked up for decades. Despite this they refused to be seen as victims, and when they were released they didn't want to wallow in self pity. They knew/know better, they understand/understood that this wouldn't be helpful to their cause.

These universities also receive public money, and they are also given a special status which requires them to be a platform for different ideas.

It is not like WP where we are publishing by proxy. We are here under terms, we could choose another publisher.

Whatever anyone says, a trans woman has many differences to a born gendered woman. They have separate issues. Their genders are biologically distinct. I find this demand that we need to discuss these things as if they are the same about as ludicrous as saying that dogs and cats are the same. In some respects they are, but if you order a vet that they have to ignore the differences between the two, then a lot of animals are going to die on the operating table. Political correctness should not trump our need to accurately articulate biologic reality.

Last edited by Nebogipfel on 02 Jan 2016, 9:25 am, edited 4 times in total.

Don't get me wrong you still have issues with your legal system, and some judges. Politicians can draft and vote for draconian laws, that isn't a good thing.

What is the test of?:


This case is of particular concern given the hypocrisy involved:
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comme ... ree-speech

A final verdict will be reached January 22 2016. I hope they throw the case out.

You can't have a situation where it is one rule for one group and another rule for another group.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 02 Jan 2016, 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

I was more talking about the tendency to constantly have to identify by a magnitude of monikers, it goes way beyond gender. If you ever seen one of those talks, and see how they introduce themselves it is beyond self-parody.

I agree in context labels can be useful. However labels aren't the whole of a person, pigeon holing people is not helpful either.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 02 Jan 2016, 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Indeed. Universities belong to the societies which they serve, not just the students who are presently on campus. As absurd as it is for the students to protest against hosting a specific speaker, it's doubly absurd for the faculty to accede to their demands. Education requires ideas be challenged, not preached within an echo chamber.

Wooooooooooooah there! Hold on a sec: Trans people do indeed have abnormal neurbiology because it turns out the BRAIN has biological gender as well as the body. For most people, the gender of the brain is in agreement with the gender of the body. But for trans people, their brains have the opposite biological gender as their body. This is because human sex chromosomes have genes that are activated in brain tissues during embryonic(and postnatal)development and if you inherent a Y chromosome but the genes on those chromosomes aren't expressed by your brain cells but instead the X half of the XY pair is, then you will have a female brain inside a male body.


Now these differences ARE relevant when it comes to dating, sex, and reproductive health issues but since people normally wear clothes there is no reason to make this distinction in public places or with people you aren't physically intimate with.

Citation please. To my knowledge there is no conclusive evidence to claim that atypical neurobiology is common, let alone universal, in TS individuals. Perhaps you're privy to a study I've missed?

These studies were cited in another thread about transgender people:

Jiang-Ning Zhou et al., A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality, 378 , Published online: 02 November 1995; | doi:10.1038/378068a0 68–70 (1995)

Milton Diamond, Biased-Interaction Theory of Psychosexual Development: “How Does One Know if One is Male or Female?,” 55 Sex Roles 589–600 (2006)

H. E H. Pol et al., Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure, 155 European Journal of Endocrinology S107–S114 (2006)

Kenneth J. Zucker & Anne A. Lawrence, Epidemiology of Gender Identity Disorder: Recommendations for the Standards of Care of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, 11 International Journal of Transgenderism 8–18 (2009)

Heino Meyer-Bahlburg, From Mental Disorder to Iatrogenic Hypogonadism: Dilemmas in Conceptualizing Gender Identity Variants as Psychiatric Conditions, 39 Archives of Sexual Behavior 461–476 (2010)

David L. Rowland & Luca Incrocci, Handbook of Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders (John Wiley & Sons) (2008)

Melanie Blackless et al., How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis, 12 American Journal of Human Biology 151–166 (2000)

Frank P. M. Kruijver et al., Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus, 85 Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2034–2041 (2000)

H. Berglund et al., Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids, 18 Cerebral Cortex 1900–1908 (2008)

Sonja Schöning et al., Neuroimaging differences in spatial cognition between men and male-to-female transsexuals before and during hormone therapy, 7 The journal of sexual medicine 1858–1867 (2010)

Eileen Luders et al., Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism, 46 NeuroImage 904–907 (2009)

Sheri A. Berenbaum & Adriene M. Beltz, Sexual differentiation of human behavior: Effects of prenatal and pubertal organizational hormones, 32 Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology 183–200 (2011)

D F Swaab, Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation, 19 Gynecological endocrinology: the official journal of the International Society of Gynecological Endocrinology 301–312 (2004)

Alicia Garcia-Falgueras & Dick F Swaab, Sexual hormones and the brain: an essential alliance for sexual identity and sexual orientation, 17 Endocrine development 22–35 (2010)

PENTTI K. SIITERI & JEAN D. WILSON, Testosterone formation and metabolism during male sexual differentiation in the human embryo, 38 Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 113–125 (1974)

Giuseppina Rametti et al., The microstructure of white matter in male to female transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A DTI study, 45 Journal of Psychiatric Research 949–954 (2011)

Damian G. Zuloaga et al., The Role of Androgen Receptors in the Masculinization of Brain and Behavior: What we’ve learned from the Testicular Feminization Mutation, 53 Hormones and behavior 613–626 (2008)

P.T Cohen-Kettenis & L.J.G Gooren, Transsexualism: A review of etiology, diagnosis and treatment, 46 Journal of Psychosomatic Research 315–333 (1999)

Looks like Wilburforce took care of the citation list for me!

However there is something called Klinefelter's syndrome which is often the causal factor for many(though not all) MTF transsexuals.

None of the above studies support the statement that: "But for trans people, their brains have the opposite biological gender as their body."



In this case "many" is <10% of the population who have Klinefelter's, though that's obviously way above the non-Kline population.

As I'm sure you've gathered, the point I'm making is that there is as yet no identifiable common causal factor, which you seemed to be suggesting. The very fact that our knowledge of the variety of factors which may or may not be relevant is so poor is just one of many reasons why open discussion of subjects (from any perspective) is important.

However, the causal factors are biologically based in terms of actual brain differences which IS quite relevant in terms of those who believe that transsexuals are just people choosing to live an alternative lifestyle and so they somehow poseurs or people who are mentally ill(unable to distinguish fantasy from reality).

I was not suggesting that Klinefelter syndrome is the sole cause but the evidence collected for the last 20 years shows that yes, they are born that way.