Hey kids: Don't be a sucker for socialism

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luan78zao
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21 May 2016, 5:13 pm

HighLlama wrote:

And why is it that that pro-capitalist, free market people never complain about only having to work eight-hour days? The eight-hour day wasn't fought for by people like Ayn Rand.

The eight-hour, five-day work week was instituted by Henry Ford in 1926 – not out of altruism, but in order to attract and retain the best employees. Competitors were forced to follow suit. (Ayn Rand was barely in her twenties at the time, not that this is relevant.)

Quote:

Shouldn't she have been bemoaning short work days, weekends, and leisure activity?

Certainly not. If you don't know the first thing about a subject, why advertise the fact?

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Kraichgauer
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21 May 2016, 9:00 pm

Shrapnel wrote:

Continuing with Ayn Rand:

"Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."

Rand was the right's Marx. Both promoted the notions of unworkable utopias, one based on extreme socialism, the other on unchained capitalism. Both were radical atheists. The world is better off without either.

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Sweetleaf
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21 May 2016, 11:33 pm

What is so wrong about a mixed economy with capitalist and socialist features? Take the best out of both and mix them together. It is probably good to have a level of competition and taking pride in your work...and want to do better than people who just laze around. But also societies are meant to take care of their people, if everything is solely based on profit people lose sight of that and get more focused on what they can have over everyone else and gaining as much power as possible.

Also socialism and capitalism are economic systems, not political ideologies...thus political ideologies and economic systems can be mixed. No one wants soviet style socialism/communism due to the authoritarian factor...when people talk about socialism they are typically speaking of democratic socialism. Many countries with this have capitalist features to their socialism...perhaps middle ground is the answer.

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21 May 2016, 11:37 pm

CommanderKeen wrote:

Also, I'm glad I left myyearbook...

That website did turn to s**t...But I still take pride in having a hand in the creation of the metal forum for the short time it lived before they deleted the forums.

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LoveNotHate
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22 May 2016, 12:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

Continuing with Ayn Rand:

"Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."

The weakness is that people are greedy.

Capitalism morphs to Crony Capitalism.
Socialism morphs to Crony Socialism.

Kraichgauer
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22 May 2016, 12:30 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Mixed capitalist/socialist economic systems are by far the best to work in the real world.

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22 May 2016, 3:47 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

CommanderKeen wrote:

Also, I'm glad I left myyearbook...

That website did turn to s**t...But I still take pride in having a hand in the creation of the metal forum for the short time it lived before they deleted the forums.

You remind me of Hayley from American Dad, so much. That site was always sh**.

HighLlama
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22 May 2016, 5:39 am

luan78zao wrote:

HighLlama wrote:

And why is it that that pro-capitalist, free market people never complain about only having to work eight-hour days? The eight-hour day wasn't fought for by people like Ayn Rand.

I said people like Ayn Rand, not Ayn Rand herself. Also, why are you giving Henry Ford all of the credit? Other industries had eight-hour days before him, and many individuals argued for the eight-hour day long before he instituted one.

Quote:

Shouldn't she have been bemoaning short work days, weekends, and leisure activity?

Certainly not. If you don't know the first thing about a subject, why advertise the fact?[/quote]

I'm not advertising anything, though I am using better manners and not selectively reading what others wrote so I can form "arguments." It's a valid question. If she is so for production and consumption, why have time off except what is necessary for rest? My point was, many of her arguments sound nice, but aren't practical or sensible.

HighLlama
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22 May 2016, 5:41 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

HighLlama wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

Continuing with Ayn Rand:

"Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."

Why must wealth be the goal?

And why is it that that pro-capitalist, free market people never complain about only having to work eight-hour days? The eight-hour day wasn't fought for by people like Ayn Rand. Shouldn't she have been bemoaning short work days, weekends, and leisure activity?

Yes I mean clearly the point of life is to work for someone to make more money off of you working than you make working. In fact the term person needs to be minimized, you are a worker and nothing more, that is your life, your interests and your all encompassing goal work and only work, no leisure...s**t, Work, Eat, Sleep! s**t, Work, Eat, Sleep!

Haha! Unfortunately, many institutions seem to really believe this. Our whole approach to mental health in this country seems to be that if you can work, you are healthy, and if you can't then you need to be fixed. People forget that jobs and money are inventions, not necessities. Socialism is bad even though it's about society, which we are part of. Capitalism is good even though it's about money, and we are not pieces of money. Figure that one out.

Jacoby
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22 May 2016, 9:54 am

There are no pure socialist or pure capitalist economies on a marco level, everywhere is mixed to varying degrees.

RushKing
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22 May 2016, 3:40 pm

Jacoby wrote:

There are no pure socialist or pure capitalist economies on a marco level, everywhere is mixed to varying degrees.

The free territory of Ukraine was quite communist -Revolutionary Catalonia was quite socialist. 300 years ago there was no capitalist enterprise. Markets predate capitalism, and gift economies predate markets.

Social democracy as it exists is basically a pure form of capitalism. Socialism is NOT government programs.

Last edited by RushKing on 22 May 2016, 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

LoveNotHate
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22 May 2016, 3:52 pm

Not mentioned yet ...

Randians/Libertarians/Capitalists argue they have the moral high ground.

They say, government coercion is evil.

Testingwaters
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22 May 2016, 4:06 pm

Quote:

Hey kids: Don't be a sucker for socialism

Too late. LOL! You could still be a neo-con or mod and still support a more mixed economy. And aren't you too an SJW for 'speaking for' the poor? I'm not even sure if you yourself can define the very sociological terms you're using.

P.S. I'm not a 'neo-liberal'.

Jacoby
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22 May 2016, 4:47 pm

RushKing wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

There are no pure socialist or pure capitalist economies on a marco level, everywhere is mixed to varying degrees.

Those were interesting experiments which took place during the chaos of a much larger civil wars and would end just as quickly as they began since they could not protect or sustain themselves, I can't imagine there was much of an economy left after WWI and during a civil war so they probably didn't have much period.

All the terms are pretty screwed up Capitalism is a term that I believe that Karl Marx coined so it's odd that people that believe in free market economies identify as term that originally was a pejorative and probably has a much more specific definition. In the US at least the terms have all gotten warped and twisted, a liberal in 1918 is nothing like a self identified liberal in 2016 and libertarian is not the same obviously either. FWIW I did make that same statement that anything the government does with public money is not socialism. The whole point is that everything is mixed now so advocating in the extreme in either direction does not seem like very good idea.

Small communities or tribes can survive a certain way for a long time but as it gets bigger failure becomes inevitable as that is human nature.

marshall
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22 May 2016, 5:39 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Not mentioned yet ...

Randians/Libertarians/Capitalists argue they have the moral high ground.

They say, government coercion is evil.

Everyone understands what they believe. Most of us just disagree. We have a different view of morality.

marshall
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22 May 2016, 5:52 pm

Testingwaters wrote:

Quote:

Hey kids: Don't be a sucker for socialism

The point is, one doesn't have to be brainwashed to disagree with the article posted. It is an absurd false equivalence designed to make Americans fear any kind of progress. Bernie Sanders is not Hugo Chavez and America is not Venezuela. The author fails to back up any of his claims. Therefore, the author of the article is the one doing the brainwashing, not Sanders or his supporters.

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