What would demons be?
After having read a couple books, The Rite (about a Catholic priest becoming an exorcist and some of the things he witnessed) and Deliver Us From Evil (also sort of lukewarm Catholic with some bizarre crap mixed in because the dude doesn't know any better), I notice a few things. I've actually read the Bible and I have an eidetic memory, so it's easier for me to discern what's bogus I'd think. Demons seem to play along with whatever you let them. Even though "holy water" and "shards of the One True Cross" and other trinkets and whatnot would, based on the Bible, be meaningless, the demons seem to play along, most of the time, though when they ignore them the exorcists then think that the "demon is more powerful". No, it's only Christ and the authority of God over such creatures that means anything to them, all the rest is drama as far as I'm concerned. It is interesting to read the accounts of the possessed getting pitch black alien looking eyes, levitating, and whatnot else, but such is just more drama on the part of the demon intended to evoke fear in the people telling them to leave and otherwise mess with their heads. I do like that even the Pope Leo XIII "Pray for laymen to pray" has a bit about not having faith in the prayer but faith in God instead, which seems like the opposite of what it is for when people chant the Roman Ritual pray in Latin at the demons or any of the others, acting like the words said verbatim have any meaning apart from the authority in Jesus Christ the Lord over such creatures.
I do believe only Christ has power over them, though in terms of phenomena associated with some of their infestations I do find it interesting that some things have common occurrences, and from the nonfiction books and not just as portrayed in Supernatural: sudden drops in temperature, cold spots, malfunctioning electronics, and for some reason a smell of sulfur. While I don't know if sulfur or anything that smells like sulfur might be used as a superconductor, I do know most quantum effects require cryogenic temperatures and often strong magnetic fields. Whether or not these creatures of themselves would be designed to use some sort of quantum effects on their own or if they use technology, it would be interesting to see what a high wattage alternating current demagnetizer or Tesla coil might do (not to the possessed, but in cases of infestation like mentioned in both those books, neither of which I truly recommend, but it's still data though). Probably nothing, but if it would mess with them it would be worth it to actually damage them if possible due to how they like to sadistically torment people and animals and destroy marriages.
I wish I could make them pay for what they've done. Really though, only Christ has power over them, as per Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” And despite the failings of fallible men and lukewarm Catholics like in Deliver Us From Evil (who are somehow, and rightfully, strongly opposed to the occult, they somehow have convinced themselves that other stuff isn't "as bad" somehow, yet they still have power over the demons through Christ because it is through Christ Jesus and not our own pretense of righteousness or anything else that we have authority over them), God still uses them to do good work even if they may sadly say "Lord, Lord" one day. Still though, it's like this: '“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."' Anyway though, it would be nice if a technological way to fight these creatures were possible, but it is in Jesus Christ that we can fight them regardless of how weak we are otherwise, so praise be to God alone.
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Kraichgauer
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I do believe only Christ has power over them, though in terms of phenomena associated with some of their infestations I do find it interesting that some things have common occurrences, and from the nonfiction books and not just as portrayed in Supernatural: sudden drops in temperature, cold spots, malfunctioning electronics, and for some reason a smell of sulfur. While I don't know if sulfur or anything that smells like sulfur might be used as a superconductor, I do know most quantum effects require cryogenic temperatures and often strong magnetic fields. Whether or not these creatures of themselves would be designed to use some sort of quantum effects on their own or if they use technology, it would be interesting to see what a high wattage alternating current demagnetizer or Tesla coil might do (not to the possessed, but in cases of infestation like mentioned in both those books, neither of which I truly recommend, but it's still data though). Probably nothing, but if it would mess with them it would be worth it to actually damage them if possible due to how they like to sadistically torment people and animals and destroy marriages.
I wish I could make them pay for what they've done. Really though, only Christ has power over them, as per Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” And despite the failings of fallible men and lukewarm Catholics like in Deliver Us From Evil (who are somehow, and rightfully, strongly opposed to the occult, they somehow have convinced themselves that other stuff isn't "as bad" somehow, yet they still have power over the demons through Christ because it is through Christ Jesus and not our own pretense of righteousness or anything else that we have authority over them), God still uses them to do good work even if they may sadly say "Lord, Lord" one day. Still though, it's like this: '“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."' Anyway though, it would be nice if a technological way to fight these creatures were possible, but it is in Jesus Christ that we can fight them regardless of how weak we are otherwise, so praise be to God alone.
I agree, if a demonic possession is taking place, only Christ can cast it out. Lutheran that I am, I am skeptical of Catholic rites of exorcism. I'm more likely to attribute so called possession to either mental illness, or dissociative identity disorder. I think genuine demonic possession is almost - or entirely - rare to nonexistent in the modern world. And as far as Christ's time is concerned, when someone acting crazy was brought to him, he couldn't very well say he was going to cure said person of schizophrenia, as no one back then knew what the hell schizophrenia was, so he spoke in the parlance of the day, saying he was casting out a demon.
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I'm not religious in the slightest but I think there are entities hanging about the ether... I am a colossal spook nutcase and am eternally researching things. I would never go near a ouija board though, in fact if someone pulled a ouija board out I'd be leaving a cartoon cut out of a massive hole in the wall as I leg it to the hills and put some healthy distance between myself and that accursed contraption. I think the chances are very small you attract a terrible thing but it's certainly possible and does happen...
I've read too many experiences to believe otherwise. I have to be very careful even when I wander through graveyard cause I get paranoid someone will follow me home lol (even tho a graveyard is probs the least likely place a ghost will linger). I've lived in a haunted place before, my toy cars would end up two floors below us overnight several times a month, there's no way anyone could have moved them since it was a pub and the beer cellar was locked as was the top floor door. That ghost never followed me anywhere else but my mate had a ghost follow him from wales, this weirdo in a tophat from the victorian times, it's picture even moved into their new attic, they'd found a picture of the guy in their first house lol.
So yeah that's ghosts... they do enough peculiar crap but demons... I don't know much about except to not do anything that might bring me into contact with them... elemental ghosts are a big research topic of mine, I dunno if they're related or not. Leap Castle has a truly bestial entity! I get paranoid sometimes if I'm thinking of demons that they'll swoop down like I have frodo's ring or something, I don't know much about where they hang out so to speak or what they look for so I'm not really interested in learning about it so I don't fret any more than I do!
techstepgenr8tion
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One side point - the thing about demons only being exorcisable by Christ or by the name of Christ, I don't know how to break this but that's something of a rumor. There are a lot of people from far eastern religions who can do it, lots of practicing neoplatonists and neopagans can, also a lot of dedicated ceremonial magicians can do the same.
I don't know what my take is on overshadowing/obsession/possession is as to whether or not it's a subconscious data glitch, whether it's psychology being beat with psychology or not, but I am familiar with particular Hermetic practitioners being called by Catholic and Lutheran diocese at times - largely because of how few priests really believe in that stuff let alone have the experience or wherewithal to do so.
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techstepgenr8tion
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Most of the time stuff like what you're describing leaves us alone. Quite often it's in broken homes, gets exacerbated by someone having interest in this stuff without any kind of spirituality buffering things the other way, other times people have addictions or other problems that they refuse to address, and still other times people have a penchant for buying things that most people would just have an inkling that they don't know where it's been and don't want to know.
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Since we're kind of discussing all things spiritual/occult, I'll throw in my personal experience with Tarot cards.
I knew a girl in college who read Tarot cards. She took it really seriously, and she did readings for a lot of friends. I thought it looked like fun and, being an atheist at the time, I wasn't worried about any oogy boogies getting me. So I got my own deck (just a mass-produced deck from a bookstore) and started playing with them. I had the deck for a couple of years, and every time I asked it a question the response was kind of like a horoscope - kind of vague, a lot of generalities, some stuff that just didn't fit, etc.
Ok, so one day I came to it with a question about an upcoming trip. You're supposed to ask the deck the broadest question possible, so I asked something very basic like, "How will this trip go?" What I got for an answer (multiple answers working together, really) was not what I was expecting. The deck basically said that what was supposed to be a simple vacation would completely upend my life and change it completely forever. I got the Death card (which means big change, not literally death) plus the two or three other "oh s**t" cards that mean serious business when they show up. There was nothing vague about the results, nor was I just reading what I wanted to see. It is sometimes possible to consciously or unconsciously interpret vague results in a way that suits the asker, but these results were so consistent and repetitive that there was no twisting them. Every card I turned agreed and built upon the last.
Anyway, suffice it to say that the cards were right. I never played with them again, and after a couple more years of being afraid to ask them anything but not wanting to give them up, either, I finally gave them away.
This is not proof of anything, obviously. It's just an anecdote from an agnostic. I still wouldn't say that I'm totally convinced Tarot cards can be real, but I'm convinced enough to stay the *bleep* away from them.
I don't know what my take is on overshadowing/obsession/possession is as to whether or not it's a subconscious data glitch, whether it's psychology being beat with psychology or not, but I am familiar with particular Hermetic practitioners being called by Catholic and Lutheran diocese at times - largely because of how few priests really believe in that stuff let alone have the experience or wherewithal to do so.
Perhaps in many cases it is just psychological or sociological in nature, but not the ones with levitation, superhuman strength, telekinesis, speaking in languages the possessed person doesn't know, etc. I would guess that demons probably play along with the beliefs of those around them, particularly ones that benefit them by encouraging sins - like praying to dead people such as saints, praying to false gods, or chanting, which are all sins according to Levitical law, and so they add to and encourage the sins of those around them to help drag them down further.
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Kraichgauer
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I don't know what my take is on overshadowing/obsession/possession is as to whether or not it's a subconscious data glitch, whether it's psychology being beat with psychology or not, but I am familiar with particular Hermetic practitioners being called by Catholic and Lutheran diocese at times - largely because of how few priests really believe in that stuff let alone have the experience or wherewithal to do so.
Perhaps in many cases it is just psychological or sociological in nature, but not the ones with levitation, superhuman strength, telekinesis, speaking in languages the possessed person doesn't know, etc. I would guess that demons probably play along with the beliefs of those around them, particularly ones that benefit them by encouraging sins - like praying to dead people such as saints, praying to false gods, or chanting, which are all sins according to Levitical law, and so they add to and encourage the sins of those around them to help drag them down further.
Chanting?
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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I do believe only Christ has power over them, though in terms of phenomena associated with some of their infestations I do find it interesting that some things have common occurrences, and from the nonfiction books and not just as portrayed in Supernatural: sudden drops in temperature, cold spots, malfunctioning electronics, and for some reason a smell of sulfur. While I don't know if sulfur or anything that smells like sulfur might be used as a superconductor, I do know most quantum effects require cryogenic temperatures and often strong magnetic fields. Whether or not these creatures of themselves would be designed to use some sort of quantum effects on their own or if they use technology, it would be interesting to see what a high wattage alternating current demagnetizer or Tesla coil might do (not to the possessed, but in cases of infestation like mentioned in both those books, neither of which I truly recommend, but it's still data though). Probably nothing, but if it would mess with them it would be worth it to actually damage them if possible due to how they like to sadistically torment people and animals and destroy marriages.
I wish I could make them pay for what they've done. Really though, only Christ has power over them, as per Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” And despite the failings of fallible men and lukewarm Catholics like in Deliver Us From Evil (who are somehow, and rightfully, strongly opposed to the occult, they somehow have convinced themselves that other stuff isn't "as bad" somehow, yet they still have power over the demons through Christ because it is through Christ Jesus and not our own pretense of righteousness or anything else that we have authority over them), God still uses them to do good work even if they may sadly say "Lord, Lord" one day. Still though, it's like this: '“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us."' Anyway though, it would be nice if a technological way to fight these creatures were possible, but it is in Jesus Christ that we can fight them regardless of how weak we are otherwise, so praise be to God alone.
I agree, if a demonic possession is taking place, only Christ can cast it out. Lutheran that I am, I am skeptical of Catholic rites of exorcism. I'm more likely to attribute so called possession to either mental illness, or dissociative identity disorder. I think genuine demonic possession is almost - or entirely - rare to nonexistent in the modern world. And as far as Christ's time is concerned, when someone acting crazy was brought to him, he couldn't very well say he was going to cure said person of schizophrenia, as no one back then knew what the hell schizophrenia was, so he spoke in the parlance of the day, saying he was casting out a demon.
That's about what it says in one theology textbook I have, about the rarity of demonic possession in developed countries, suggesting that these creatures instead play more of a mind game here. They get away with whatever people let them really, that's what I think. Sort of like in the show Supernatural with that tulpa thing which takes the form of whatever people are willing to see or something like that. Perhaps many of the people Christ healed did just have mental problems, but probably not the ones who called Him "Son of God", "Christ", etc, knowing who He is and such, like with Legion (the actual demon, not the Geth in Mass Effect 2&3). Maybe in places which don't have populations thinking they're so "advanced", demons manifest themselves more violently whereas I've only read about a few cases here in America, but otherwise they probably do just mind games and subversion to encourage people to harm each other in various ways. Maybe it's like Reaper Indoctrination in Mass Effect to some degree, with some possessed people retaining their intelligence and some degree of the appearance of self control while others are used more as husks than as intellectually active agents. IDK, really the Bible should be the source of doctrine on the issue rather than speculation and whatnot, but I think it's real. Seeing the movie Exorcism of Emily Rose got me thinking about this, which was based on a true story. It's strange that in 2005 that that movie came out along with Frank Peretti's Visitation, and the start of the show Supernatural. Fiction aside, I've read a couple non-fiction books about demonic possession and infestation in the modern world, and it scares me. I know God is omnipotent though.
Perhaps it's somehow because I watched the movie Exorcism of Emily Rose, but on May 16th at 3am I woke up to hearing the circuit breaker click off for my home and then turn itself right back on. I had to set my digital wall clocks to my phone clock and restart my computer, and put on some music because I needed to hear something other than quiet. I was freaked out to say the least, because if it were just a waking dream it wouldn't have affected anything in reality but it would just be a simulation within my mind. My birds didn't seem to be afraid though, and for them I acted as calmly as I could, but it was super weird. I asked for prayer then and I still ask that everyone who believes in God would keep praying for me and my birds and my family, I don't want to put up with any more of this. Not the separation from my wife either, I'm sick of how the devil has destroyed my marriage. I loved Jackie and I have never stopped loving my precious Jackie. I keep thinking of stupid phrases like "just because you've started a 'new life' and treat me like I'm dead doesn't make our lifelong vows any less lifelong" and if I had a phone or if I went back on facebook I would probably say hurtful things like that and make things worse. I want to no longer be angry at my precious lady, I just want our marriage to be saved already, and everything I say just makes it worse. I love her, and yet her silence towards me seems to make me angry at her and I keep thinking of mean things to say to get back at her for her silence and I'm sure they'd hurt her feelings if she read or heard them. I love my precious lady even if she's a stinker, but ever since she got fired and sued she became a different person and I kept fearing the worst even though I knew it isn't true, and every time I was honest with her about my stupid feelings it just hurt her worse. Please, pray for my family, pray for me, pray for God to protect my birds, and bring back my precious Jackie and me to each other and "let no one separate what God has put together."
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I don't know what my take is on overshadowing/obsession/possession is as to whether or not it's a subconscious data glitch, whether it's psychology being beat with psychology or not, but I am familiar with particular Hermetic practitioners being called by Catholic and Lutheran diocese at times - largely because of how few priests really believe in that stuff let alone have the experience or wherewithal to do so.
Perhaps in many cases it is just psychological or sociological in nature, but not the ones with levitation, superhuman strength, telekinesis, speaking in languages the possessed person doesn't know, etc. I would guess that demons probably play along with the beliefs of those around them, particularly ones that benefit them by encouraging sins - like praying to dead people such as saints, praying to false gods, or chanting, which are all sins according to Levitical law, and so they add to and encourage the sins of those around them to help drag them down further.
Chanting?
I can't find the reference, but I remember reading it specifically in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy, but also Christ said not to pray like the hypocrites who think God will hear them due to their repetitions.
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techstepgenr8tion
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Quite likely not.
Truthfully have had to deal with astral pests before and usually camphor or garlic applied to your feet, wrists, the top of your head, etc. can help in that case. Similarly energy-vampiring them back usually makes them realize you're not a free meal and the door probably won't hit em in the arse on the way out. Then again that's typically just the equivalent of getting a raccoon or stray cat in your attic and trapping or chasing it out.
Dealing with something considerably more strong-willed as you described would take more to banish. Really the best defense against that sort of thing is be engaged in spiritual practice and to pray and meditate often; add to that don't do anything stupid enough to get the attention of something like that. Links with a group egregore of some type - whether an organized religion or a particular mystery school - also goes a long way. Past that we're pretty much back to crucifixes, holy water, obverse pentagrams, and if push really comes to shove asking what it is that it wants and if it wants you to set out a bowl of cornmeal on your porch every day for a week just playing a long with it. Robert Bruce claims walking over water, either a bridge over a stream or river or an active water-pipe in the ground, dislodges them. I couldn't say either way on that one just that I've heard it repeated often.
Clearly if you ever get the flu, end up weakened in some way, and you either wake up in the middle of the night feeling like some kind of energy is bearing down from the top of your head to the soles of your feet or alternately you have such an intense dream of that sensation that you wake up in the kind of convulsion that you dreamed of having (this has happened to me) it's wise to really take good care of yourself at that point, pray up, get enough rest, eat the right things, and hope that if it's not friendly that it won't be able to hang on for much longer.
As far as I've come to read, from people who've had experience with them, it's like dealing with a predatory animal in the wild just that rather than it being something that will chase after you to eat you because you're smaller and thus lower on the food chain it'll chase after you like a demented lawyer with some sort of odd/angular contract that it wants to novate you into (not a bwahahah - contract for your soul, typically something too weird to make much sense of). It sounds a bit like getting harassed by the decaying astral shell of a used car salesman.
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Kraichgauer
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I don't know what my take is on overshadowing/obsession/possession is as to whether or not it's a subconscious data glitch, whether it's psychology being beat with psychology or not, but I am familiar with particular Hermetic practitioners being called by Catholic and Lutheran diocese at times - largely because of how few priests really believe in that stuff let alone have the experience or wherewithal to do so.
Perhaps in many cases it is just psychological or sociological in nature, but not the ones with levitation, superhuman strength, telekinesis, speaking in languages the possessed person doesn't know, etc. I would guess that demons probably play along with the beliefs of those around them, particularly ones that benefit them by encouraging sins - like praying to dead people such as saints, praying to false gods, or chanting, which are all sins according to Levitical law, and so they add to and encourage the sins of those around them to help drag them down further.
Chanting?
I can't find the reference, but I remember reading it specifically in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy, but also Christ said not to pray like the hypocrites who think God will hear them due to their repetitions.
I take Christ's saying that we should not pray like the hypocrites to be more along the line of making a big public show in which the one doing the praying, rather than God, is receiving all the attention. Chanting, on the other hand, is a communal act in the worship of God.
In regard to your previous post, concerning the movie The Exorcism Of Emily Rose: While it was " based" on a true story, the fact is, the priests who conducted the exorcism had been convicted and imprisoned, after the poor girl who they had tortured for weeks to get the Devil out of her died of gangrene. That's something the movie never cared to mention.
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LOL Okay, now that is just funny. In Job the term "Satan" is used for the devil, which literally means "accuser" or "prosecuting lawyer". The first mention of the devil is of course in Genesis 3 where he does that tempting of Eve (Hebrew Chavah), in which the fence of "don't even touch" is what is thrown out because the actual command is "do not eat", not don't touch, and the "you won't die" is practically followed by a silent "right away". Really, a used car salesmen, lawyer, banker selling loans, or any other profession which requires lying professionally fits the bill probably. Of course, there's no such things as ghosts and demons are fallen angels, but if the chicken and egg problem were reversed it would be like what you said. However, as Christ said, satan is the father of all liars.
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I don't know what my take is on overshadowing/obsession/possession is as to whether or not it's a subconscious data glitch, whether it's psychology being beat with psychology or not, but I am familiar with particular Hermetic practitioners being called by Catholic and Lutheran diocese at times - largely because of how few priests really believe in that stuff let alone have the experience or wherewithal to do so.
Perhaps in many cases it is just psychological or sociological in nature, but not the ones with levitation, superhuman strength, telekinesis, speaking in languages the possessed person doesn't know, etc. I would guess that demons probably play along with the beliefs of those around them, particularly ones that benefit them by encouraging sins - like praying to dead people such as saints, praying to false gods, or chanting, which are all sins according to Levitical law, and so they add to and encourage the sins of those around them to help drag them down further.
Chanting?
I can't find the reference, but I remember reading it specifically in either Leviticus or Deuteronomy, but also Christ said not to pray like the hypocrites who think God will hear them due to their repetitions.
I take Christ's saying that we should not pray like the hypocrites to be more along the line of making a big public show in which the one doing the praying, rather than God, is receiving all the attention. Chanting, on the other hand, is a communal act in the worship of God.
In regard to your previous post, concerning the movie The Exorcism Of Emily Rose: While it was " based" on a true story, the fact is, the priests who conducted the exorcism had been convicted and imprisoned, after the poor girl who they had tortured for weeks to get the Devil out of her died of gangrene. That's something the movie never cared to mention.
I kind of what thinking more of them chanting prayers like this:
"Exorcizamus te, omnis immundus spiritus
omnis satanica potestas, omnis incursio
infernalis adversarii, omnis legio,
omnis congregatio et secta diabolica.
Ergo draco maledicte
et omnis legio diabolica
adjuramus te.
Cessa decipere humanas creaturas,
eisque aeternae Perditionis venenum propinare.
Vade, Satana, inventor et magister
omnis fallaciae, hostis humanae salutis.
Humiliare sub potenti manu dei,
contremisce et effuge, invocato a
nobis sancto et terribili nomine,
quem inferi tremunt.
Ab insidiis diaboli, libera nos, Domine.
Ut Ecclesiam tuam secura tibi facias libertate servire
te rogamus, audi nos.
Ut inimicos sanctae Ecclesiae humiliare digneris,
te rogamus, audi nos.
Terribilis Deus de sanctuario suo.
Deus Israhel ipse truderit virtutem
et fortitudinem plebi Suae.
Benedictus Deus. Gloria Patri."
But as far as worship songs and stuff go, to the pure all things are pure. I don't think being convicted in earthly courts means anything, since they let actual murderers walk free, sentence the innocent to death, and so much else to prove that "Justice" isn't blind but either cares only for money while it's looking at its scales to see who gave the least gold or is just plain stupid and doesn't care about truth and right and wrong but only cares about arbitrarily enforcing gibberish which human lawmakers fished out of their toilets and letting murderers and rapists walk free on "technicalities" while innocent people get falsely convicted of murder only to be proven innocent years after they've been murdered by the "justice" system. I don't know all the details of Michel's case, but I know how naturalism is presumed true and so any thought to the contrary would be ignored. I also know that Jackie and I gave each other our lifelong vows, neither of us have ever had sex outside of marriage, and as per Christ in Mark 10:1-12 we are still married and if we married anyone else it would be considered adultery regardless of whatever human courts pretend to say is "okay", since all authority comes from Christ, they are not able to validly say anything in opposition to His will regardless of whatever they would presume to say in contradiction to the will of God.
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Xenosparadox
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