The Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

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When people start researching metaphysics and the occult it's an area where you have just so many bulls--t artists raking in the money and invading every nook and cranny of cultural history with specious nonsense on anything either obscure enough not to be public knowledge or that can only be truly verified by a group of people small enough to be accused of being in the conspiracy. Part of the trials and tribulations in researching the esoteric side of things is trying to swim past all the rubbish.

I saw last night that I got a Youtube recommendation for a David Icke video about the moon. Guy was going on about how it was some kind of ship because it rang, stopped just short of calling some kind of Dyson sphere, and claimed that a probe that landed there pushed the moon back or whatever as if it was hollow and weighed way less than it should. If you believe some people, then again, all that's speculation because we've never been to the moon, really have never been to space because the Van Allen belts would kill any living thing sent up there. Other people are sure that NASA and JPL are a big satanic Illuminati conspiracy, compliments of people like Jack Parsons, to reunite with all the fallen angels and nephilim that are on spaceships waiting to invade earth.

Almost always, without exception, to do even a little bit of homework squashes this stuff. Unfortunately all someone has to do is blow a whole new cloud of smoke over something that hasn't been re-tested or re-verified in a while and pow - instant theory!

If it is justified, It will happen again..
If you physically visit there, you will witness the sheer hell of it (from available resouces). No one will talk about any justification on the event after that.

Americans dont need to proud of it, but there is a limit to how much we need to be ashamed of it.Long story short: it was among many bad options at the time. It wasnt obviously the worst option.

Nothing before you were born has ever happened.

What you consider "reliable/credible" has the issues to which of any "authorities" you subscribe. Fundamentalist Dogmatic-Christians do not regard anything that cannot be found in the bible as credible, Muslims will likewise want to see if the Qu'ran has something to say to determine credibility, Zionist-Jews may go by the Talmud, then there are Acadème who do not consider non-Academic sources as credible, and of course everyone in the main-stream wants to hear the "Official" word from Government.

The "skepticism" I have until I do further thorough investigation is a combination of various sources. One statement "The pictures of Japanese people burned is consistent with fire-bombing like happened in Tokyo and Dresden (rather than nuclear-bombing)" requires that I go look at these original pictures from their original source(s) to be able to make such a determination for myself. I have also looked at the "footage" for nuclear/atomic-explosions from apparently "near-proximity" that shows things like buses and houses being blasted and shattered into non-existence which still requires me to figure out the original source of where said footage was obtained from in order to come to a determination of my own if I were to view it for myself (the narrator(s) point out that the camera doing the filming of such atomic-explosions apparently do not shake or rattle during the times of filming these incredibly powerful blasts/explosions which is regarded as a suspicious anomly).

NASA was also mentioned in this thread, and I am still trying to get my head around the whole idea that the Atomic-Explosion would have been used as the "Official" narrative, when carpet-bombing may have been the reality, but I am not entirely certain for reasons that I would still need to see the original pictures/videos from the original sources (I have learned that this is necessary when double-checking on claims of Conspiracy Theorists). Perhaps you would be willing to assist me in pointing to the "original" footage from where this guy got these clips in order to put together his video ? Basically, I do not know which search-terms to use for navigating through a large Official-Channel to find the original footage, such as going through all of NASA's archives. I do know that the producer of this following video probably obtained several of his clips from the RussianVids channel, but I need to know, what is the original source, from NASA where I can watch it from perhaps the You-Tube NASA-Channel itself ?

I am still going over the Atomic-Conspiracy information I came across, but I have not fully studied all of the claims thoroughly yet, and that is why I am suspending any final judgement or decisions until I can comb through these deserts to find any possible diamonds floating around. I did not claim that the Hiroshima/Nagasaki incidents were not nuclear-explosions, for your information, but I did make the claim that I am not certain that they were definitely a result of an Atomic-Bomb or two.

Alright, now you are just taking information out-of-context, and mind you, I have done enough researching and studying of para-psychology to KNOW that there are well-documented cases of Jews being witch-hunted down during that Era and before (including in the United States), such that the existence of a Holocaust is not in question. What I did question was as to whether or not the death-toll numbers were accurate. I have difficulty believing that 5-6 milion was accurate, although I can believe that the numbers could have easily been at least a minimum from 250K all the way up to maybe a couple of millions.

I think a lot of this gets significantly easier when you're able to determine certain things about the root mechanisms of human behavior and sociology. Clearly we've seen some examples, such as Nazi Germany, where things got profoundly strange and where what otherwise ordinary people did, went along with, or put up with were astonishing to a lot of outside observers. There were plausible stresses however, such as the extreme conditions of the Versailles treaty, that made 1930's Germany fertile ground to be seduced by a 'secular hero' as John Ralston Saul described both Napoleon and Hitler.

By and large human internal needs and pressures limit the kinds of craziness that are possible in the matter of 'If I can dream it up someone has probably done it somewhere' from being world-wide sweeping cabals with all the powers of Decarte's evil genius vested in them (Celestine Prophecy, etc. etc.). What I'd say here and what I've really trying to explain to Blonde_alien in a lot of her alien threads, it's significantly more likely that we live in a world and universe where overall its quite predictable, perhaps to the point of utter tedium if you're looking at the lowest levels of it for too long, but that it can and does glitch around the corners. Really if you look at something like the idea of the 'zero universe' model that the gentleman at Google talked about (suggesting that observation and collapse were the same thing lead to ultimately no unified 'universe' per say), you could expect some medieval people to encounter sylphs, the Irish to encounter fairies or be grabbed up by Robert Anton Wilson's pukas, people in the woods of the northwest to run into yetis, or people in the hills of Appalachia and the deserts of the south west to see UFO's. I get interested actually in things like ceremonial magic, the mystery traditions, and the like because it seems like it's people taking those oddities into their own hands and seeing how human potential can be enhanced, altered, or hacked for the purposes of bettering humanity. Weird stuff happens around the frayed edges and it's doubtful that the meanings that we generally attribute to it fits - rather most of it starts blurry and condenses as we look at it, ie. it shifts into focus as our subconscious minds process into what we can handle it being. For as much as I'm not a fan of Noam Chomsky's politics I sometimes have to acknowledge that his view of mysterionism makes a fair amount of sense in that we do try to compress reality into fitting our terms rather than accepting that there is more going on than we can conceive (or perhaps more on the jaded side a universe that simply isn't as rational as we'd like it to be and that it won't always cater to our needs, and if some people are right it may not even have the sentience to do so!).

Outside of that last part, human existence is pretty boring and straight-forward in most cases. People's proclivities often have a direct effect on where they're comfortable spending their time, what kinds of activities they like, so quite often like minds converge along natural channels. I'm sure there are groups of people who want certain things politically, Fabian Coefficients Club might be such an example if what's said about them (ie. the Fabian part) is legit - I'd think of that more like a political action committee who knows they have controversial views and stays private more than a knowingly integrated piece of some huge world-ruling entity. At worst I'm sure you have various crime syndicates doing atrocious things to both the innocent and guilty (Mexican cartel's hijacking buses for example). While I have class with some guys who are in the FBI and they have to deal with things like child trafficking, deep web issues, and I wouldn't be surprised if they've run into some sickos who've tried to make their own Serbian films, you'll see niche and basement conspiracies based around people who, for whatever reason, have rather unusual drives and urges and just by how society shakes out they often find one another sooner or later.

I don't think conspiracy theories are universally untrue, I just think that - short of some very credible evidence - the needier the contingencies are, regardless of whether they're really sexy or really boring, the more likely Occam's razor takes them down and for noble reasons. Something that needs huge numbers of people with mixed degrees of accountability typically isn't credible. I'm probably not saying anything to that point that's too controversial, but I'd just reiterate - look at the limits of human energy, of causality within human programming, and where we've historically seen things get way out of hand see if any of the symptoms of such things could really be kept so far under wraps.

Two points about the end of WW2. America was daily firebombing Japanese cities and continuing those raids would have killed just as many, if not more civilian Japanese as the A-Bomb, in fact, on the night of March 9, 1945, an estimated 88,000 were killed in a single air raid on Tokyo.

Secondly, picture the reaction of US citizens had the US lost 100,000 soldiers in the invasion of Japan and then it was discovered that Truman had held back a weapon that could have saved those lives.

My opinion is that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ultimately saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of American G.I.'s and maybe millions of Japanese. The Japanese were prepared to fight to the last man, woman, and child if directed to by their god Emperor Hirohito. Every Purple Heart award ever created was created before the end of WWII in anticipation of the casualties a ground invasion of the Japanese home islands, they still have these excess Purple Hearts which they keep on hand on the battlefield for immediate award to soldiers wounded on the battlefield. We would of doubled our total casualties in the war and invasion/occupation of Japan would of probably killed over 5 million Japanese. If the Emperor never surrendered we would of probably been fighting in Japan for years afterwards.

Look at how the Japanese fought in Okinawa and imagine how that could of been had we been forced to invade the Japanese homeland, they were preparing for to inflict as any causaulties as possible in an attempt to force the Americans to bargaining table for a negotiated peace rather than total surrender. They hid in caves or committed suicide right on the beach, my grandfather witnessed their ritual suicides and I imagine that is something that never does leave you. We had to drop two a-bombs for the Emperor to agree to terms to end the war and the US was prepared to drop 3 or 4 more or however many was necessary to force Japan's surrender, thankfully their Emperor thought better but it is unfortunate that he did not order the surrender after to first bomb was dropped.

Another big factor in Japan's surrender that history often forgets is that the Soviet Union after conquering Manchuria declared war on Japan on August 8th before the bombing of Nagasaki as they had promised to join the war in the Pacific within 3 months of Germany's surrender on May 8th. The Soviet's planned to to invade thru the north in Hokkaido and would of likely ultimate partitioned Japan north and south between Soviets and Americans as it happened in Korea so you have to think about implications of what occupation by the Soviet's would of meant for the future of Japan.

I think it is a good point about the fact if the US didn't use the bomb there that they very likely would used it elsewhere later down the line and who knows how history could butterfly from there. The destruction and evil unleashed by these bombs would not of been none and we could of seen more people die in some other war that may not of been fought otherwise. There was voices that believed that the allies should of continued their war in Europe against Stalin and Soviet Union, Winston Churchill was very concerned about the Soviet occupation of Europe. We would likely seen nukes in Europe in this scenario, the British had their own extensive ideas for chemical warfare first the Germans and I don't see why this would of changed had a war against the Soviets in Europe had happened. Without the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would Stalin been content with where he was at in Europe where they had a MASSIVE advantage in terms of manpower and tanks, they could of possibly taken the whole continent under Soviet occupation.

I think ultimately the decision saved lives, not just American soldiers but also the people of Japan and maybe elsewhere as well. It is not something to be proud of but it was necessary to end the war quickly. War is never pretty, war itself is a crime against humanity but you cannot fight wars without doing what is needed to win, you cannot fight with one hand tied behind your back and expect a good result. The Japanese were an evil empire in east Asia, they slaughtered millions of civilians and were responsible for unspeakable crimes particularly in China and Korea who to this day have not forgotten what they did not to mention what they did to allied POWs. My grandfather never talked much about the war despite being considered a hero, he did not hate but he never forgave the Japanese. They literally ate people alive, they were monsters just as bad or worse than Nazis in their crimes. Truman's legacy as president is one that is debated, he was the most hated president in US history when he finally left office mainly for his failure in Korea and dismissal of General Douglas MacArthur who revered by the veterans of Pacific War. Truman was faced probably more tough decisions than any US president, he didn't always make the right decision but I think in retrospect he was more right than he was wrong.

There was a danger the soviets would arrive and there'd be another country split in half once more so I don't doubt showing them the devastation they could inflict from above if they decided they wanted some of the region for themselves factored in. D-day was as much about a second front as it was vital we got over there before Stalin expanded further west and set his stall up, can't exactly just ask him to get the hell out if he'd taken the territory, we saw what happened in Germany.

edit - jacoby made the point very strongly above, nice post.

The soviets never hesitated to throw as many bodies as they could at the enemy, russia had a lot of dispensable bodies, america took a little more pride in the sacrifice of its sons. Land invasion would have been unacceptable when there was the alternative of the nuclear weapon, also the japanese had sussed out where the landings would take place, not many feasible options on those coasts. D-day took a hell of a lot of planning and feinting and we lucked out on the panzers being held back due to hitler's idiocy.

Not okay. We all have done dark things in our past that we need to answer for. Its important that we take ownership when we've done wrong.

That said, with America acknowledging the wrongness of dropping those bombs, I think Japan should own up to the misdeeds it committed in the war, the abuse of POWs, sex slaves in China, and all the other messed up stuff.

to the people that think it was the wrong decision, what do you think of the alternative?