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Why The Judaeo-Christian God Makes No Sense to Me

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carturo222
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19 Oct 2017, 10:21 am

Mikah wrote:
It's not ok to kill someone while they are unconcious or numbed by anasthetic. To know why that is wrong, is coming half way to my position on abortion.


Before a nervous system has developed, there isn't even a "someone" to speak about. Without a nervous system there's no mind, and without a mind there's no person.



Mikah
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19 Oct 2017, 10:38 am

carturo222 wrote:
Mikah wrote:
It's not ok to kill someone while they are unconcious or numbed by anasthetic. To know why that is wrong, is coming half way to my position on abortion.


Before a nervous system has developed, there isn't even a "someone" to speak about. Without a nervous system there's no mind, and without a mind there's no person.


You've avoided the question.


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cubedemon6073
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19 Oct 2017, 11:03 am

God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?



carturo222
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19 Oct 2017, 11:19 am

Mikah wrote:
You've avoided the question.


Went and read your thought experiment. You're committing the continuum fallacy. The fact that a fully grown adult is a person does not imply that a just conceived zygote is a person. The zygote is of course human, in the sense that it's genetically related to our species, but it's not a person because it has never had psychological functions and subjective experiences.

I don't know where the line should be drawn. I emphatically agree with the approach used in the Netherlands, where a newborn with a severe condition that was not detected during pregnancy can be legally euthanized. How long after birth should it be permissible, I don't know. Becoming a person is a very gradual process; any solid line of demarcation would be arbitrary. But I find it very clear that it's meaningless to speak of harm against anything without neural functions.

Edited to add: Also, you make a false distinction between "natural" and "unnatural" conception. I suggest you use more precise terms, because nothing that happens in this universe is not natural.



Last edited by carturo222 on 19 Oct 2017, 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

carturo222
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19 Oct 2017, 11:21 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?


Why do you trust your imperfect mind when it thinks that a deity is perfect?



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19 Oct 2017, 11:25 am

carturo222 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?


Why do you trust your imperfect mind when it thinks that a deity is perfect?


the god of the old testament thought that the life of a mother is worth more than the life of a fetus. if you hit a pregnant woman and she died, you were killed. if her fetus died, you were fined.



carturo222
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19 Oct 2017, 11:33 am

cathylynn wrote:
the god of the old testament thought that the life of a mother is worth more than the life of a fetus.


That's the same god who killed every Egyptian child and who was perfectly fine with slavery and who commanded military campaigns of extermination, so on balance, he's still a monster.



cubedemon6073
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19 Oct 2017, 1:01 pm

carturo222 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?


Why do you trust your imperfect mind when it thinks that a deity is perfect?


Answer: I don't. I don't understand what the Bible says because it is to perfect for my mind to understand and grasp. It is my sinful and autistic nature that makes it incomprehensible to me. All I can do is just put it and keep it on the book shelf.



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19 Oct 2017, 1:28 pm

carturo222 wrote:
Went and read your thought experiment. You're committing the continuum fallacy. The fact that a fully grown adult is a person does not imply that a just conceived zygote is a person.


I didn't say person, I said human being.

Quote:
The zygote is of course human, in the sense that it's genetically related to our species, but it's not a person because it has never had psychological functions and subjective experiences.

I don't know where the line should be drawn. I emphatically agree with the approach used in the Netherlands, where a newborn with a severe condition that was not detected during pregnancy can be legally euthanized. How long after birth should it be permissible, I don't know. Becoming a person is a very gradual process; any solid line of demarcation would be arbitrary. But I find it very clear that it's meaningless to speak of harm against anything without neural functions.


Yep, went through this in the other thread. Personhood means different things to different people (in US law it pretty much everyone under the age of 18), you need a much tighter definition if you are using it to justify ending the lives of human beings.

carturo222 wrote:
but it's not a person because it has never had psychological functions and subjective experiences.

You know, some might call that absolute innocence. Again I put to you the same implied question, still unanswered. Why is it wrong to kill an unconscious, anaesthetised person?

carturo222 wrote:
Edited to add: Also, you make a false distinction between "natural" and "unnatural" conception. I suggest you use more precise terms, because nothing that happens in this universe is not natural.


It's pretty obvious what I mean, no need to get that stuck into that kind of philosophical precision.


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carturo222
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19 Oct 2017, 2:25 pm

Mikah wrote:
Why is it wrong to kill an unconscious, anaesthetised person?


Because they presumably wish to continue living. That assumption doesn't apply to fetuses because they don't have the necessary organs to have wishes, and it's the same reason why it's OK to euthanize the braindead.



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19 Oct 2017, 2:26 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
I don't understand what the Bible says because it is to perfect for my mind to understand and grasp. It is my sinful and autistic nature that makes it incomprehensible to me.


Why do you trust your imperfect mind when it judges the Bible to be perfect?



Mikah
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19 Oct 2017, 2:59 pm

carturo222 wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Why is it wrong to kill an unconscious, anaesthetised person?


Because they presumably wish to continue living. That assumption doesn't apply to fetuses because they don't have the necessary organs to have wishes, and it's the same reason why it's OK to euthanize the braindead.


Ah interesting argument. Is it acceptable to kill anyone who has expressed suicidal thoughts?


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19 Oct 2017, 3:12 pm

carturo222 wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
I don't understand what the Bible says because it is to perfect for my mind to understand and grasp. It is my sinful and autistic nature that makes it incomprehensible to me.


Why do you trust your imperfect mind when it judges the Bible to be perfect?


I don't trust my imperfect mind. The point that I am making is that if we go by the Christian belief system then it is impossible to comprehend the Bible. Perfect means complete, whole and not needing anything else added to it. If all of humankind is imperfect (anything that is less then God's completion) and if these are his perfect words then none of us can truthfully comprehend what it actually says since we as mankind is incomplete if we compare ourselves to God (as the Biblical God).

Every denomination in Christianity does not agree upon what everything in it says actually means. Yet, they all say and claim to represent God's will and claim to be his sole representatives and everyone else are false prophets.

Who is correct? How are we to read and interpret the Bible correctly? Under the conditions laid out no one including myself can know what it actually says even if they believe and think they do since based upon conditions laid out by Christains the Bible is the perfect word coming from a perfect God and man is imperfect and sinful. Plus I have my ASD so it's double for me.

As for the bigger picture. If we can't even get the details right that makes up the bigger picture then how can we really understand what the bigger picture is supposed to be? How do we interpret properly?



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19 Oct 2017, 3:16 pm

Mikah wrote:
Is it acceptable to kill anyone who has expressed suicidal thoughts?


Kill them? No. Let them kill themselves? I'm not sure. I had suicidal feelings several times, and it just so happens that now my current life has improved to the point that I'm glad I lived. But nothing guaranteed this improvement would happen.

Psychiatric science has concluded that suicidality is a disordered state of mind that doesn't actually promote the best interests of the subject. In someone not otherwise afflicted with incurable suffering, the wish to die is a misaimed wish for better conditions.



carturo222
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19 Oct 2017, 3:21 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
I don't trust my imperfect mind.


If you believe in your beliefs, you do trust your mind. You trust it every time you have an opinion or make a choice.

cubedemon6073 wrote:
How are we to read and interpret the Bible correctly? Under the conditions laid out no one including myself can know what it actually says


If you can't be sure what the Bible means, why are you so sure it's perfect?



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19 Oct 2017, 3:44 pm

not okay to kill an anesthetized person because, even though not at that moment. the capacity for sentience.