Questions For People Who Believe in Souls

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Observation of reality.



Eh... ? What's a 'meme'? Isn't that the dorky idea that Richard Dawkins dreamt up to try to put a reductionistic, materialistic spin on concepts and ideas that are encountered within cultures that cannot otherwise fit into his narrow, dogmatic, nihilistic perception of reality? Isn't 'meme' just another word for 'an idea'?

I feel strange on questions of faith and belief, probably because on one hand I've generally - at least in the long run - felt like I was too much under threat or duress (just with how my ASD reflects against my life) to feel like I could afford long-term willful suspension of disbelief and not pay dearly for it in some way. What I do at times though is consider that if I'm chasing something subtle and if it can get disturbed readily I have to, for the sake of doing the experiment right, method-act it out long enough to see if I've been able to examine the terrain anywhere close to thoroughly enough.

I had a reminder, going camping this weekend, just how unsentient nature feels and how pretty much everything seems to follow the laws we're typically taught in school whether physics, chemistry, etc.. but in more derivative and complex ways. At the same time to follow a lot of the psy research that's been done - Radin, Sheldrake, etc., it doesn't seem like my own immediate and often materialist-oriented intuitions quite map on to the evidence at other levels. it's part of why I have about as little trust for myself at those times where the idea of no God, no life hereafter or human soul, and the general glut of naive materialism 'feels right' enough for me to take a leap of jump back into that camp as I trust those times where some piece of evidence I just heard (but often haven't thoroughly vetted yet) seems to blow some sort of new age-like hole in my reality in too easy a manner. What feels right in my gut can take me all over the map, from one extreme to the other based on how I feel or what's happening in my life at a given moment, it can take hair-pin turns within a week at times, I'm probably not the only person with such a traveling barometer of common sense which is why I tend not to trust making sweeping proclamations on gut feeling.

If I'm used to anything with following and studying this stuff - nothing about it is convenient. While I get that there's tribalism and people like to make things artificially sharp, clear, and certain even when it's untruthful to do so I also see where this area is so maddening and ungratifying from every angle that I can't blame most people for taking at least some leap of pronounced faith or non-faith when it's expedient.

I know none of that answers those questions. About all I'd say is human souls? Maybe, just that unfortunately we're in one of two places or both right now possibly both - the first being that it's loaded up in tons of personal and truly inexplicable experiences that delivered information otherwise unknowable (which is a private confirmation for the people involved) or we may have some studies which will replicate consistently which will show at least several of the basic building blocks of what's needed for a soul to be part of the fabric of the human mind such as an active component suspended in timelessness (Pribram Bohm or something like that), evidence of at least deep psychism if not past lives, more continual follow up on that consistent 5-6% probability gap on Ganzfeld type tests, methodological follow up of the random number generator work, etc.. If it's just a gap in the science then it's just a really uncomfortable waiting period, although I have an intuition - just on the flavor of this stuff - that it's probably worse. That won't answer 'is there a soul?' but at least it would answer 'Is this the world of the naive materialist?', and at least to that last question I have my doubts on about as much as I doubt blunt or doctrinal theism.

There is a finite amount of water on planet Earth. If you keep drinking it, will we run out?


Maybe being dead is boring?

I'm paraphrasing heavily here, but generally, with reincarnation, the belief is that with each life, we are meant to learn from it, to suffer from our misdeeds, to grow, and to eventually reach true enlightenment. It's like a video game: if you die before you finish the game, you're encouraged to press Start and try again.

Terrible analogy, I know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVhNCTH8pDs

In my life at least; iN Growing up on a River that actually flows one way or the
other and never actually ceases to be in my life time at least as there is more speak in
the World than do and now that carries on into text and links and such as that; where folks
never really develop tHeir Soul across a life span now. A Soul is real; A Soul is A mind And
Body in Balance where emotions are regulated and senses are integrated. This understanding
is surely not new and other Animals who are not trapped in cultural contracts of abstract constructs as
the tools we create to help us that in effect become us more than flesh and blood as we become 'the tool'
ranging from the first written WORD to the 'Art and Science' we hold in our hands as 'Smart Phones' now; yes, other
Animals do this with ease now as they practice flesh and blood and are not fallen to the edifice of Tools that become
an Idol of their
Soul ranging
from written
Words to hand
Held Devices, now.
'Other' Animals Dance and Sing
And while their Dance Now and Song
may not make Reason to Human as A Soul
As their Life Rhymes with A River of Life that
is God and Soul the sAMe and Different too; But of
course, i am not an empty Vessel born that way or raised
that way with Devices away from Empathy, Sympathy, and Compassion
for the illness of Soul these days is one of Nature Deficit Disorder for that
is the same in Metaphor of God Deficit Disorder for those who hold all of existence
in Honor and Respect of Doing Nature in Balance as Art of Rhyme over Reasons of Prison Cold
Smiles For a Soul if full of feelings and senses; or a Bible or a Koran or even a Paint by Numbers
Poem or other Tool of Art that becomes Guidelines and Instructions out of Original Art may become
Soul Less
as even a
Tool that other
wise might reflect
A Soul that is Deeper
than Shallow Tools that
Replace a Flesh and Blood of Soul.
Anyway, when one becomes A River
one won't know; but one will be Soul
as far as metaphors for what's real goes;
For it's true, once one becomes a Planet in
Orbit around their own Sun as Star within reborn
in Balance from Super Nova Explosions in Crucible
Fire of that Birth as coming to us now as Sentient Gaseous
Star Dust Dancing Singing or Sitting Still and Typing, the least
one can do is make their Keyboard a Dance Floor with the Rhythm
of the Vibrations that come as Frequency of a Song that feels and
senses more
like Soul
than
emptiness
oF A Tool with no Home
that is A Gift of Soul that
All Wild Animals are Born with
that and who Practice Life Free
with innate instinct and intuition
as simple as what feels and senses Good to Be
now out of the Dark of whatever struggle comes
before or next as when Life is Good Life is Good forevernow.
It's true, there is no firm rule that says one ever has to think about
Dying or Being Sick or other Illusory Fears until the dark actually comes
but it is also True the gift and curse of written words now that become idols
of soul can and will make this very difficult to do, until one masters their soul
as real emotions that are regulated and senses that are integrated too; and
then, who knows; better yet, who feels and senses; then, perhaps, one's
words will
become
FLoWeRS more
than Dead and
Concrete in a Pet
Cemetery that is a Living
Zoo of Being Human; Others
Do this Reality Producing Deep
Art that Surely Reflects A Reality
of what is a World of Human Tools today.
The Twilight Zone, is one of my Favorites,
and it's true, i view it from the outside inside out
most
every
day i Travel
all around 'town'
in Barefoot Dance and
Song; clothed with tools or not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah; so may other Art-i-Facts
oF Art in Culture Do a Fine Job Describing this
Reality now from the Matrix Series of Movies to
the Terminator Series of Movies to the Movie
i see shuffling by in Walls of Pink Floyd as
just other
Bricks
in the Wall
that i too used
to be without much
Real Flesh and Blood Soul;
Free and Wild as Loving Life. It's true; it's
beyond sad now for it's no movie; it's real.
Canaries, in the Coal mine who escape really get it.
And it's true; as i visit Churches as a Participant Observer
Anthropologist there as just a Human Hobby too; I do find
some Canaries in a Coal Mine who have no Clue of the Color of their Feathers
now that are
much more
grey
than
the
Yellow
of Star inside
that feels and
senses Life is the best now
on this Earth and only on this Earth now
as a Flesh and Blood Soul that FLoWeRS Rose;
as Just another
FLoWeR
Word
for SouL.
Here's A Deal;
this isn't a reaLiTy
that Mechanical Cognition
can either study or express
with a Scientific Method fully
now for it's true; literally ART
is 60 percent of smART; NoT
likely that is just a coincidence
as so many other numbers and letters
are derived from Nature/God as Metaphor of 'us';
While as Brush and Paint and 'MasterPeace Painting'
We continue
to Paint
'this
God'
whether
we are cognizant
oF iT iN Art of Science as 'us'.
It's true; there is A 'raTion' oF
Art Well beyond
Paint
by Numbers
and Letters alone;
For those who 'see'
And 'hear' it And Do 'it' NoW.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIZ04AGTjHc

I think living the questions is more important than getting the answers. I rather doubt that human beings, at this point in time, are at the pinnacle of human development. Each generation discovers and surpasses previous generations and many things now known to be true were considered false in the past. Things considered true in the past are demonstrably false now. Moving along on this trajectory, it would be reasonable to speculate that future generations will look back on ours and see where we are currently wrong, when firmly believing we are correct. So to me, human understanding is dynamic and fluid. That there could be things which exist beyond our current understanding seems like a reasonable conjecture.

Asking the questions and giving thoughtful consideration to them can provide humans with an exercise in living a fuller life and achieving greater understanding. For example, if one is considering whether or not animals have souls, one might consider apparent personalities, responses to kindness and pain, apparent devotedness, etc. These could lead one to conclude that although the question of whether or not animals have souls is still open, you (editorially) could decide to treat animals with respect and care and try to avoid hurting them. Also, in asking the questions, we see directions in which to take further research, further philosophical discussions, and so on. Seems worthwhile to me.

So thank you for asking the questions and all the explorations of answers here. I find this very interesting.

I don't really need to point out the fallacy in your analogy, which blatantly ignores the stated reason for my questions, do I?

You probably do, as I don't see the fallacy.

Using this definition, souls can inhabit non-sentient creatures...
And this might suggest the soul is irrelevant-to/divorced-from a person's consciousness?

I think "we" have determined previously that the brain is responsible for consciousness, not the soul?...
And the personality of a person is the result of the neurological configuration of the brain, not due to a soul?...
Damage the brain through trauma and you often change a person's personality...
This is a verifiable fact...

Some may interpret the soul as being the conscience of the person, guiding the individual's moral decision making process, but personally, I see this phenomenon of inherent morality simply a part of the neurological makeup of someone as a result of the evolutionary process...


No need to apologise...
Forums such as these are purpose-built to encourage philosophical/self development...
And, contrary to popular belief, I too don't know everything...

Shall we ask him to spell it out for all to see rather than leaving it to interpretation?

Nah, I'm patient.

Either that, or the thread will just die, leaving me in a cliff-hanger...so what else is new??

Souls don't exist in science.

The very concept of souls was something humans invented because the brain's function was unknown, the concept of the souls in the ancient times was like the 'driver and consciousness' of the body ; they imagined that the body is like a vehicle and the soul is its embedded driver, that's the why the concept of undead and zombies in ancient times was 'soulless bodies moved by necromancy'.

Science proved that mind, consciousness and the ability to send commands to body movements are ALL part of the brain.

Sever brain damages are the biggest proof that souls don't exist.

It’s pretty hard to point it out without basically repeating word for word the post you were replying to, so if you ignored the most important part the first time, I don’t see any reason to expect you won’t ignore it again just as easily.







I’m sure you’re well aware that a human being doesn’t just keep removing more and more water from the environment, but on average releases as much water as they drink back to the environment in a few well-known ways. Therefore, simply having a certain population of humans drinking will never cause the Earth to run out of water. On the other hand, if the human population were to grow boundlessly, the amount of water sequestered in human bodies would steadily increase and eventually there would be no more water left in the environment, even though the growth would probably be halted much sooner than that by other problems.

Similarly, in your scenario, each human sequesters one spirit from the environment for their whole life. If the number of living humans grows without bounds and there’s only a finite number of spirits, eventually there should be no spirits left. I specifically asked what would happen then.

It was mere curiosity, but I’m not really interested in wasting the time it took me to put this post together every time I ask a question. Being autistic and all that, I only very slowly learned this kind of obstacles usually mean the other person doesn’t want to debate the issue at hand and is more interested in getting me to shut up and leave them alone. Therefore, I’ll let this matter rest.

What I have noticed thus far, is that everyone here is clinging to a rather rigid division between the soul and the brain and trying to argue which one 'is us'. But I'd like to propose a different hypothesis and I'd be happy to hear what others think about it.

One the one hand, as Pepe discusses, it is very clear that damaging or numbing certain parts of the brain removes certain mental faculties, which demonstrates that the brain is the origin or essential vehicle of the mind. Yet, it is strange how our thoughts never feel to be located somewhere in our head, but our consciousness seems to sort of float around us. So what I propose is the following: what if the soul is an immaterial projection of the brain, so that is simulatiously dependent on and seperated from the physical brain?

^^

Two theories, Orch OR and Pribram Bohm seem to suggest an intersection of values - ie. the processor and something illuminating the processor.

Either or both may be oversimplified. To date we still don't have a satisfactory explanation of what the 'I' experience of awareness is and if we're to argue that it's something intrinsic to matter we have to deal with understanding how it combines (ie. the combination problem of panpsychism) as well as how it can abstract itself out of its root elements to not be locked into an exact 1:1 spatial relationship.

The two above theories seem to bypass panpsychism and essentially suggest either a field or really a spray, ie. with Orch OR it's a spray of collapse and with Pribram Bohm I think it might have been photons. If I understand Dr. Penrose's claims for Orch OR and what Godel's Incompleteness theorem has to do with it it seems to be the case that we can compute incomputable things, it's a battery of trial and error, and something in his calculations makes him think that such battery of trial and error happens so fast that it suggests a factor of computation that's flooding over and across neural gaps rather than being piecemeal processing by different parts of the brain strictly speaking.

It'll be interesting to see where all of this goes in the future as well as just how many, and what kind of, problems aren't addressable by purely neurological considerations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt8VYOfr8To

It's worth noting that the state of the art of 'Soul' was very limited, 2000 Years or
so years ago when metaphors for the part of life that is the Inner Universe that is experienced as the
Social Empathic Artful mind/body that more recently has been related in metaphor of Language in limited
understanding of the Brain as 'Right Brain' Intelligence; as only relatively recently has Science and the
Folks who do Science even come up with terms to express the what the Social Empathic Brain does
in terms of Emotional Intelligence of Emotional Contagion and Cognitive and Affective Empathy
and the 'other side' of the brain as metaphor of Systemizing Science Brain that is a more
literal and concrete think of life in more material reductionist natural
ways of seeing the world in more small picture view.
It's also worth noting from a Social Science and Anthropological Perspective; and
yes, Psychological and overall Health Science Perspective as those are where my college degrees
still live as i continue to learn more as an autodidact as such along with the very 'right brained' orientated
Activity of Art as Poetry and Dance Feels/Expresses the more Social Empathic part of mind and body in balance
as now we are talking about an overall ignorant Culture of Soul as that relates to the rich emotions and senses
one experiences when the 'Feminine' Grace and Love of 'right brain' ways of being are allowed to air out as such
out of straight line regimented concrete views of life that don't allow men to express what even feels good in life
to raise potential warriors who are not averse to killing other human beings as it is necessary to 'kill' a Human Soul
for at least a temporary period of time to go in battle and kill other beings of the same species for Tribal Benefits
to gain subsistence and shelter; and yes, mates as far as that goes in raping and pillaging to destroy the Human
Soul for the part of Spirit of Emotions of Heart that would other wise never fathom such an activity with a
Spirit of Altruistic Human Love that is real when watered and fed and overall gardened as love. Yes,
like what they do in the Military, putting Prospective Combat Soldiers in Virtual Reality gear to
accommodate and numb the Soul to cold blooded necessary killer to get 'the jobs'
all done without the trigger finger freezing up as what happens when
the normal aversion to killing members of the same species
is fully living too. Being Slow in Emotional Intelligence
is surely not just an issue for many folks
on the Autism Spectrum for it is
a very big issue still in
Patriarchal 'Trump Lands' and others
of being where Men and others have little handle
on what it even means to have a soul or do a soul
these days for Emotional Regulation and Sensory Integration
that doesn't other wise end up in an early Heart Attack and High Blood
Pressure and Headaches and Ulcers and overall misery loves company and "I hate
everyone who so freely loves other folks with no problem", now; as 'they have no idea'
what they are doing with their soul and heart and real organic Emotional Spirit for that
type of education
is not something
men are still
allowed to do
in 'Trump Cultures' still.
It's both amusing and sad to see
just how 'slow' a person's intelligence can and
will be in the soul arena as they have little mastery over either
their Emotions or the Grace of their senses integrated as they've
just rarely used it and have been told that are emotions are just silly mush;
and just for women as this is the same Malignant Patriarchy that hasn't allowed
both the anima and the animus as Jung would relate to co-exist when the entire mind
and body comes in balance like a finely tuned Human Ferrari as such as even Science shows
now as Science continues to progress that Emotions Regulated and Senses Integrated as a Healthy
'Soul' is what makes great cognitive executive functioning even possible in terms of focus and short
term memory as Emotions Regulated and Senses integrated are what make that even possible to happen
in a
effective
manner to make
more than a Twitter
Tweet of life possible
in the day of a life of you
or me; with lesser or greater Emotional
and Physical Existential Intelligences now.
And it's true, Emotions are the Glue of all Memory too.
In other words, you too might be able to write 40,618
Words in a Week more than a Twitter Tweet, if you Dance too
to regulate your emotions and integrate your senses like a finely
tuned Ferrari now still or Lamborghini or whatever vehicle is in the
'Work Video Now'; heHe' as I will speak to that too more below this;
In other words, many folks; particularly men, still as a Culturally
Enhanced problem are still stuck both in the Dark ages of Soul
And Emotional Intelligence too as Really Soul is just a Metaphor for
The intelligence of Emotions effectively regulated and senses integrated now.
Here's A key; if you can master your emotions/senses you need never have stress that
lasts past the fight or flight response in 'normal life'; and if you can integrate your senses
you can and will most always feel more comfortable in your own flesh and blood soul. It's
true, these concepts are difficult to understand in words; until one actually does a practice of
moving or still meditation for long enough to get a handle on the bio-feedback of soul that
works for each individual to get a job done of Heaven within. Yes, for those folks who have little to
no clue; the Soul is practically invisible for the Soul has yet to become either born or reborn again after
a life of stress. Until people realize this is just a semantic game of words as forms that relate a reality that
is organic in bio and neuro-chemical; as well as the Vibration and Frequency of the Dance and Song now of the
Entire Nervous system and the rest of the show as Force of Energy in Synergy too as no; Science is just touching
the skin of the entire Soul, so far now; and hasn't even got to the flesh and blood of the EnTire Soul now as metaphor
of course; meanwhile, some folks will stay lost from a Real Heaven of life, relatively speaking, in Free Will of Mastery
of Emotional Regulation and Integration of Senses of Real Living Human Soul as Metaphor now; but on the "other
Left Hand"; Yogi's and other Tibetan Monks and Shamans and the such have already innately instinctually and
intuitively found a way that works. Bliss, is easy to now to see for those who regularly master it.
For other folks, the common reply is what kind of drug are you on when it is simply
an intelligence that they have not yet developed or have little to no
clue that exists.
Yes, "Class", the
Intelligence of Soul
that includes Emotional
Regulation and Sensory Integration
that is much more than any Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy of Instructions and Guidelines
alone; for this is a free dance and song that works for
those who seek and find it; and actually practice it for Heaven
as metaphor always now. The Spirit is Emotions and Senses working
together as one Force as Synergy Energy of Electrical, Bio-Chemical, and Neuro-Hormonal
Connections/Reactions from Head to toe; as felt and expressed in all ways of Social Empathic
Artistic Intelligence; also referred to overall as HeART; The Soul is the Force of our Being that
at Highest Pyramid Capstone Levels of Existence exists as Mind and Body Balance getting all the jobs
done in life in Peace and Harmony most in effective Altruistic Cooperation that makes Life overall Love
in both
Survive
and Thrive
for a Dance and
Song together best
close to naked in relatively
small groups of Human Beings
of no more than about 150 to 200
sets of eyes and ears and generally
speaking Hips that move legs and feet
in Synchrony of the Rhythm as the Vibrations
and Frequencies of a Song and Dance that raises
this Organic Spirit up for even more Happy Days of
Cooperation around a Midnight Campfire of Bliss and
Nirvana where Moonlit Night is awe and wonder of a life
worshipped
in honor
and
respect
of what all that
is of existence is now.
It's true, 'they' don't teach this in
'Robot School'; for if they did even though
they don't know it anyway; Humans are much
harder to control when they master their own
source of Happiness within alone and all together
as a Happy Tribe more; MeaNwhile, folks Bond over Misery
Loves Company and while it's no 'real' conspiracy theory; the reality
is they continue to slave away for happiness for the form of a dollar bill
over
the
Essence
of Love that
lives as soul free
alone and allone as well.
I don't believe or even hope
for a Soul when i am a living
Soul who Can and Will Feel and
Sense a Heavenly Bliss always now
just from the Bio-Feedback of all those
reactions and connections as practiced as
a way of life in dance and song that is organically
as real as real gets; but just hard to put in only a Twitter
Tweet more than Unconditional Fearless Love as this is a Real
Intelligence and Practice of Existence that takes constant work
from first to last
blink as sadly
Soul
is no longer
even on the Grocery
list for most; no matter if folks give
lip service to the form of the word
as just a four letter thing or not. People
ask me all the time for some of the drugs i am
on when i dance. And i tell them, you are going to
work the rest of your life for this pill; As Heaven is
not a word but a practice of Soul that is Work Work Work.
Hmm; that brings to mind 'that Britney Spears Song' and it doesn't
matter if that was her original Poetic Intention or those who Directed
and Produced the Video or not; for it's true, this isn't a party in France'
this is a naked Gospel of Thomas 37 Verse that works when real within
and as
given
and shared
without even
a word with others
in a Connecting Dance
that raises the Soul up
to an ascendent
transcendent
ecstasy
of bliss where the difference now
is; there is no drug in charge of the
experience as you are the one who
Directs and Produces and Acts the
Whole Experience at Love of Will
and Will as Love for True this Free Will
is relative as you Master your Nature now
With the Rest of Nature as Co-Navigator too.
Again; it all depends on the Definition of Soul;
A ReaLiTY SoUL Is A SoUL wHo and THaT alWayS
Works NoW to get 'it' all together
as Love and Will and Grace
of
Strength.
Anyway, as a Boston University Study
most definitely indicated in the 'Hay Day' of
the Wrong Planet 'Strident Atheist' Days; reviewing
the posts in this very section of Politics and Religion
and Philosophy now; there was only 26 Percent of Folks
who related themselves as Atheist then. Many of the rest
of the Folks were honest enough not to follow an instruction and
guideline
God
from
some 2000 year
Old Religion where
there is much more real
life stuff that actually works
as shared all around the world
in terms of Spirit and HeART and
Soul and an overall bigger Picture
Spiritual Life of HeART and Mind
And Body Soul that actually has huge
benefits, in every now life now. Otherwise,
as far as I'm concerned, it's just verses of words with not much meaning at all.
And seriously, if a Soul is not Real; what is it more than just a word with no love at all now.
Religions and Cultures that are Tribal Leaning have been trying to capture the Essence
of our Existential Intelligences as Human Beings and Lock them in a Prison of Words
and suggest they own the essence of Existence in Idol Symbols of Words; In all the
ways those Tribal Leaning Cultures and Religions Peppered in Malignant Patriarchy
coming then and now to put the 'Real Soul' somewhere else in an abstract construct
that is not
even
'real' anymore.
And it's true; it's very
easy to subjugate and control
a Human Being without a much
greater self-actualized soul. It's
true; how do 'they' put Joy in prison when Joy is Real
and manufactured within for free without the 'goods' 'they' 'sell' to you.
It's when one lives this life of Heaven, when realizes how poor the 'Trumps' really are now.
And yes, desperate too; for what they are missing inherently instinctually and intuitively
as a Soul that is Alive and Generating Light of Positive Energy Force by Relative Free Will of
A Dance
and Song
from Head to Toe Real.
And I am by far from the first
person to attempt to put A Soul in Words.
Once you get tHere; it's only Altruism now
in Flow that you too, would strive to do this too.
Better yet; no words at all; just A Dance of Heaven
more fully illustrating Bliss that is easier to see and be as Dance;
sure; though;
A Song
can
and will help too..

http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/procee ... er0782.pdf

Having studied human psychology in reasonable depth, understanding the evolutionary process "adequately" and having dedicated some time into researching human history in some quarters, I have to see things in a more cynical light...

While I agree with what you have said in regards to superstition/ignorance being the "mother" of the intellectual construct of a soul, human nature being what it is took advantage of this concept to pacify and/or blackmail some of the unenlightened population into what Nietzsche called a slave philosophy/mentality...

Having a soul which could be eternally condemned to torture in hell manipulated some individuals in a couple of significant ways:
1. It intimidated some people into behaving themselves, or there would be dire consequences...
2. It gave succour to some of those who were brutalised by others to think that their tormentors would suffer eternal damnation while their temperance rewarded them via access to a heaven...
Why should Hitler get off scot-free through suicide, as an example...

Maybe it is simply the devil in me talking...