Do minorities actually care about "cultural appropriation"?

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Chronos
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18 Jul 2018, 5:23 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Chronos, I agree that that distinction should exist. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, no one who complains about cultural appropriation as though it's a huge, offensive problem seems to make it. A white peson having dreadlocks, tattooing themselves with the chinese sign for "cattle" (and claiming it means "sacrifice") and listening to jazz music are all perfectly reasonable causes for violence,in their eyes.


Indeed there are people like that. There was a recent row over a white American girl wearing a traditional Chinese dress to a prom. The individuals who were upset with this were other Americans, some Chinese Americans. But those Chinese people born and raised in China voiced approval over her choice of dress. A Chinese woman today is more likely to choose a modern western dress to a formal occasion but the Chinese are much like Americans in that they tend to like when people adopt things from their culture.



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18 Jul 2018, 7:43 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
The zipper was invented in Sweden, so you lot better unzip and stop appropriating my culture.


^^ This.

A rant follows...

I find the whole idea absolutely ludicrous. By the logic of these purists,

Gershwin should have been banned from writing "Porgy and Bess", and it should NEVER be performed.

Pinchas Zuckerman, Gil Shaham, and Yitzhak Perlman should be forced to play nothing but klezmer music. They should be prohibited from ever playing Tchaikovsky, Mozart, Elgar, or any other non-Jewish composer. (P.S. I happen to have a CD of Perlman playing klezmer and it's great, but can you imagine losing 98% of his discography otherwise? Or Shaham's absolutely overwhelming gorgeous Scheherezade? LUDICROUS. Stupid beyond belief.)

While we're on the subject, Rimsky-Korsakoff should not have been allowed to write Scheherezade. He was Russian. How dare he write about an Arabic folktale! And Dvorak? Writing the New World Symphony? Sacrilege! Burn all the sheet music!

And Oleta Adams and Al Jarreau should never have been allowed to make their wonderful recording of "The Waters of March" by Jobim, because Jobim was from Brazil and they're not. Weren't... we lost Mr. Jarreau last year, dammit, but at least he didn't live to be subjected to this nonsense.

Also, all women should be prohibited from wearing trousers. That's an appropriation of masculine culture, after all. And wave bye-bye to the DC Drag Race, or whatever they've renamed that wonderful whimsical delight. Also, anyone with piercings or plugs had better be from the exact cultures that originated them, and wear them exactly as they originated. Or else.

Only descendants of Benjamin Franklin are permitted to use electricity. Only Mexicans can eat in Mexican restaurants. Sorry, folks from Guatemala and Honduras, Brazil and Peru. Sorry, everybody else too.

Nobody who isn't Japanese is allowed to watch or enjoy anime. Only Brits are allowed to read Pratchett. Only Scots may listen to the war pipes, or learn to play them.

I mean, the permutations of this idiocy are endless... and what is it really about? It's about being an obnoxious PITA, to get a rush of phony superiority, as a displacement activity from doing something usefully pro-social.

Feh. Now, give me a few minutes to catch my metaphorical breath, and I'll let you know how I REALLY feel.

... end rant...

++++++REDO FROM START++++++


^^^^love it, :D


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Chronos
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20 Jul 2018, 1:09 pm

There was a white lady in Portland who had to shut down her burrito stand because she was being harassed over appropriating Mexican culture.

But some observstions.
1. There are white Mexicans.
2. Burritos aren't actually Mexican, they are TexMex and not very common in Mexico.
3. Most Mexicans and Mexican Americans probably don't care if non Mexicans make burritos.

I'm Askenazi. I don't care who makes matzo ball soup. I'm just glad some of the markets around here do so I can go out and buy it rather than have to make it myself.

Go ahead, make challah bread and noodle kruegal and lox and bagels. A christian polynesian can open a "jewish deli" for all I care and it wouldn't bother me one bit.

If someone makes good burritos, more power to them.



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20 Jul 2018, 8:05 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Food For Thought: During the 1960s, the hippies copied a lot from East Asian culture and Indian culture, even though the hippies know very little about either. Was that cultural appropriation?

To be honest, the hippies don't really know much about anything. They were leftists, but they justified their leftism using mushy "love" bullsh** instead of using reason. Today, the aging hippies continue to push fad diets, "crystal healing" and spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

The entire hippie movement was a mistake. It was a mistake that the left needs to recover from.


Food for thought indeed. One of the things I like about WP is it makes me think. So I have been thinking about your critique of the "hippie" movement. My first thought, I have to admit, is how young is this guy? :D

As it happens, I am preparing for a wilderness canoe trip, and I make my own granola. (How's that for hippie appropriation! There is a half aisle of granola bars in our local supermarket.) My original granola recipe comes from The Whole Earth Catalog. As a young person this is where I first learned about female sexuality, same sex sexuality, women's reproductive rights, the environment, vegetarianism, working together instead of against each other. Many of these things are taken for granted now, or are at least in the public domain. They weren't in the 60s and 70s.

I also recall the dedication of many "hippies" to civil rights, ending the war in Viet Nam, equality for women and people of color.

I don't think I would write off that generation as being a "mistake." :D :D :D


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ltcvnzl
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20 Jul 2018, 8:43 pm

i feel cultural appropriation make a lot of sense when you talk about it in a large scale, I remember a few years ago one of biggest Brazilian accessories brand made an editorial full of black culture elements but only white models... it sparkles a lot of debate over cultural appropriation, which seemed fair specially because it's a somewhat common portrait in media.

But at the same time, I feel a lot of this debate focus on an individual level which is just insignificant. Some individual can enjoy another culture and take elements of it, it always had happened, and many cultural elements nowadays aren't even "pure" or exclusive of one culture.



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31 Jul 2018, 11:05 pm

Here's another phrase that I hate.

"You are trying to destroy our culture and uniqueness!"

White nationalists say this all the time, but some non-white POC activists spew this sort of crap all the time. I honestly don't understand why so many people are so obsessed with "preserving their ancestral culture" or whatever. First of all, we are all individuals. Second, we all belong to the same species. Why do old cultural traditions need to be preserved?

Also, I've noticed that some SJW activists on Tumblr will throw around the term "cultural genocide" willy-nilly. I've never really liked the term "cultural genocide" anyway. Supressing someone's culture is obviously not as bad murdering millions of people. The far-left's misuse of the phrase "cultural genocide" is similar to the far-right and its use of the phrases "white genocide conspiracy" and "abortion Holocaust".

Overall, Tumblr is a cesspool. It's full of losers who rant about how they want to kill white people and males. Tumblr sucks.


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01 Aug 2018, 1:36 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Chronos, I agree that that distinction should exist. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, no one who complains about cultural appropriation as though it's a huge, offensive problem seems to make it. A white peson having dreadlocks, tattooing themselves with the chinese sign for "cattle" (and claiming it means "sacrifice") and listening to jazz music are all perfectly reasonable causes for violence,in their eyes.


When you want to beat someone up, you don't need a sound philosophical discourse to justify it; you need the physical ability to overpower them.


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JoeyFlash
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05 Aug 2018, 8:13 pm

I've never really cared. I'm white/mexican so I'm only a half-minority (or a super minority since there are probably less white/mexican people than white or mexican people.)

I pretty much mock the whole cultural appropriation thing, and I have sorta noticed it is more white people than minorities that are angry about it. It makes me think of "hey everyone, look how super-duper ultra progressive and open minded I'm being!" kind of "white savior" complex to give themselves some sort of pat on the back. I have come across a few instances where the minorities thought of it more as appreciation than a negative thing.


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07 Aug 2018, 2:20 am

I think most of the posts in this thread are unduly harsh on the concept. When people talk about cultural appropriation, they're usually not talking about these vanilla examples taking inspiration from other cultures, or saying people should isolate themselves in some artificial cultural vacuum. They're talking about stereotyping or fetishising foreign cultures, or exploiting them for profit.

For example, the burrito stand that closed after being criticised for cultural appropriation wasn't criticised "because a white person was running it", it was criticised because she took the recipes from a Mexican woman and it wasn't clear that she'd received permission. It could help to think of it in intellectual property terms. There is anger that white, Western ideas are fiercely protected and considered valuable, but this protection isn't extended to other cultures. Hundreds of black bluesmen and rappers lived and died in poverty and squalor, but Elvis and Eminem took the same ideas and became filthy rich. (see later)

Similarly, it seems to genuinely hurt and offend many Native Americans when people reduce their culture to a feather headdress, particularly after they've been discouraged from continuing their cultural practices by American society. There was outrage when JK Rowling referenced the skinwalker legend in some of her writing around Harry Potter, because she was reducing a culture to one misunderstood folk tale and capitalising upon it. Japanese people have their culture reduced to geishas and kimonos without the surrounding context.

Mistress Weatherwax raised non-Brits reading Terry Pratchett as a deliberately ridiculous comparison. I agree that this isn't bad - Pratchett became phenomenally wealthy off his work, which is owned by him alone rather than being public domain. I am sure she would join me in expressing distaste if an American were to re-write Night Watch with all the subtlety removed and the jokes replaced with teen movie material, particularly if that went on to become the definitive version of the story. I know it's common for Brits and Anglophiles to complain about "Americanisation" (or "Americanization") when their favourite works become watered down in adaptation. This could be considered a form of cultural appropriation, but it wouldn't be labelled that way.

Regardless of your thoughts on copyright law (personally I'd like it to be dramatically loosened), hopefully you can acknowledge that we more readily attribute things to "the commons" when they come from non-white cultures. If you don't think that's a bad thing then OK, but let's engage with the substance of what people are saying rather than just straw manning them.