What's the political climate like in the UK right now?

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Biscuitman
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22 Aug 2018, 5:08 am

Tequila wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

as a side issue - when new countries join the EU, the existing countries have the option of blocking migration for 7 years from them. In 2004 when the Daily Mail types got hysterical about Poland, Romania etc joining it was actually the UK Govt who chose not to implement this 7 year block. We were 1 of only 3 countries that did not impose it.

And what party was that Government?

I am sure you know that was the Labour party in 2004. What difference does it make which party it was? Both major parties have done little to follow EU FOM and have instead continued with our own EU immigration policy of allowing people without employment to migrate here and stay.

Tequila
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22 Aug 2018, 5:12 am

Biscuitman wrote:

not sure we really know the admin costs do we?

VAT is more than 12p in the £1. VAT is 20%.

Biscuitman wrote:

do you have any data on the eastern Europeans being a net loss?

It's more than about money. It's helpful to refer, but at the end of the day any benefit seems marginal. We still have to find space to house them, provide facilities for them, and so on.

Biscuitman wrote:

I have no issue if someone wants to come here, can find a job within 3 months, pays taxes and takes out private sickness insurance.

You're a few sausage rolls short of a Jacob's join if you want it without thinking of your own people that actually have to live here. It's needless and unnecessary competition.

Tequila
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22 Aug 2018, 5:16 am

Biscuitman wrote:

What difference does it make which party it was?

Reading West is a two-way marginal (they have a Tory MP), Reading East is more solidly Labour than Reading West is Tory, although in 2004 they had a Labour MP. They elected the Tories in the 2005 election.

Are you a Labour supporter? If so it kind of matters there.

Biscuitman
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22 Aug 2018, 5:21 am

Tequila wrote:

without thinking of your own people that actually have to live here

which is not what I do. Please stop trying to create and impose a false position that I hold simply so you can attack it

Tequila wrote:

It's needless and unnecessary competition.

This is not fact, it is your opinion, and one I do not share with you.

Tequila wrote:

You're a few sausage rolls short of a Jacob's join

You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. Please don't try and insult me just because I hold a different view to you.

Biscuitman
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22 Aug 2018, 5:21 am

Tequila wrote:

Are you a Labour supporter?

The_Walrus
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23 Aug 2018, 3:26 am

climber9 wrote:

The slur that everybody who voted for freedom is a xenophobic racist bigot is one of the more unpleasant aspects of the Brexit debate. It's advocates seem to be under the impression that if it's repeated often enough it becomes true.

Quote:

It doesn't. I, for instance, have worked happily in the NHS alongside foreigners for more than thirty years. I very much resent the accusation of prejudice.

Being worried about uncontrolled immigration is not the same as being racist.

Quote:

Suppose I was crippled by arthritis and was on the waiting list for a joint replacement which would immeasurably improve my quality of life. Then, a week before my op, I'm told that my place in the queue has been given to someone whose clinical need is greater and who arrived in the country yesterday. If I am unhappy about this am I being racist? If so, how, since I don't know the ethnicity of the person involved?

Mythos
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23 Aug 2018, 3:44 am

The_Walrus wrote:

climber9 wrote:

That's pretty much the opposite of what has happened. Over the past five years, racists have spent so long claiming that it isn't racist to be racist that people are starting to actually believe it.

Some people, I think, don't genuinely believe they are racist. It's likely due to propaganda in "independent" media that using these so called facts does not make you bigoted, it just makes you an advocate for the truth. I think some people seriously believe when they claim they are not being racist, xenophobic, etc., yet fail to realise they have only really convinced themselves.

Stripping us of our right to live anywhere within the EU that we want is not "voting for freedom".

I think that, under conservative rule, our nation will be reduced to an isolated bubble where we convince ourselves we can do literally everything ourselves; no need for external intervention, subsidies or trade offers. We'll be fine as our currency crumbles, our infrastructure disintegrates, our work force is gradually reduced and workers in our public services begin to decline causing an even greater strain than before. But it's OK, we're Britain, we'll survive.

Quote:

Being worried about uncontrolled immigration is inherently xenophobic. Uncontrolled immigration is a very good thing. Tequila has already posted that EU migrants are net contributors in the UK (which of course means that British citizens are not; I don't have a problem with that). Studies suggest that removing all barriers to immigration would be worth around $10trn to the global economy.

I'm largely in favour of globalism and entirely anti protectionism, but I still have my doubts about entirely open borders. Not that it bothers me personally but I still have my concerns.

Prejudice isn't all-or-nothing. Being able to work with people doesn't mean that you have no prejudices. If you hold concerns about immigration then you are xenophobic, pretty much by definition.

I still don't understand the issue with legal immigration as though everybody in Britain is a devoted contributor to society.

Quote:

I deliberately emphasised xenophobia for this exact reason.

It would be natural to be upset about having your operation delayed. However, if your reaction to the delay is different based on the nationality or place of birth of the person who moved ahead of you, then yes, you are being xenophobic. There's no good reason to prefer people who were born on the same rough bit of land as you to people who weren't.

Let's not forget that immigrants are not devoid of contribution. I feel like those that are constantly banging on about immigration think these people do nothing at all. I can't imagine this is the case.

The_Walrus
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23 Aug 2018, 3:50 am

Tequila wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

not sure we really know the admin costs do we?

VAT is more than 12p in the £1. VAT is 20%.

Honestly, the lengths people will go to...

I don't think HMRC pays VAT on its tax collection services. If it did, then that money would go to the Exchequer and thus be counted in the figures.

Yes, the "net contribution" factors in HMRC's administration costs, which are marginal. HMRC's budget was £4bn in 2010; think it's somewhere in the region of £7bn now. Of course, that covers things other than tax collection, but it comes to about 1% of the government's budget.

Put it another way - UK nationals are presently a net drain on the system, primarily due to us being less likely to be of working age. Let's say we contribute 98p for every £1 we receive. Should we then deduct 20% for VAT and some more for miscellaneousness administrative costs? It just doesn't make sense.

Quote:

We still have to find space to house them, provide facilities for them, and so on.

This is fairly trivial. We're a big country with lots of empty space; loss-making farms make up a large part of the country. The bigger issue is that housebuilding takes time, but of course the bigger driver of the need to build houses is old people living in their homes for longer (which is a good thing, but does mean those homes aren't freed up for young people).

Quote:

You're a few sausage rolls short of a Jacob's join if you want it without thinking of your own people that actually have to live here. It's needless and unnecessary competition.

Emotive topic but please avoid the personal attacks, thanks.

All people are "our own people". There's no sense in discriminating between British people and non-British people. It's irrational and xenophobic and unfair. As a liberal, I won't stand for it.

The_Walrus
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23 Aug 2018, 4:02 am

Mythos wrote:

Some people, I think, don't genuinely believe they are racist. It's likely due to propaganda in "independent" media that using these so called facts does not make you bigoted, it just makes you an advocate for the truth. I think some people seriously believe when they claim they are not being racist, xenophobic, etc., yet fail to realise they have only really convinced themselves.

Yeah, I think that even the "not racist just don't like 'em" types genuinely believe that they don't have bigoted views. I think a lot of people haven't had access to the schools of thought that encourage critical thinking about these sorts of issues; it's very easy to go your whole life without thinking about it.

Quote:

I'm largely in favour of globalism and entirely anti protectionism, but I still have my doubts about entirely open borders. Not that it bothers me personally but I still have my concerns.

I think it's natural to have some concerns about the idea of totally re-opening our borders again. It's been about a century since our borders were open so most people can't really conceive of it any more. I don't condemn feeling that way, but it's still more based on personal feelings than anything else.

Quote:

I still don't understand the issue with legal immigration as though everybody in Britain is a devoted contributor to society.

I don't even really see the issue with contribution. Human rights are inalienable. People deserve to be treated well regardless of whether they are "valuable".

Biscuitman
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23 Aug 2018, 4:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Quote:

We still have to find space to house them, provide facilities for them, and so on.

This is fairly trivial. We're a big country with lots of empty space; loss-making farms make up a large part of the country

agreed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

Quote:

Five hundred experts analysed vast quantities of data and produced what they claim is the first coherent body of evidence about the state of Britain's natural environment.

Having looked at all the information, they calculated that "6.8% of the UK's land area is now classified as urban" (a definition that includes rural development and roads, by the way).

The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.

Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.

In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.

Biscuitman
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23 Aug 2018, 4:04 am

I messed up the quoting on that^ post!

Biscuitman
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08 Sep 2018, 2:59 pm

Possible vote of no confidence coming next week

bellapines
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26 Sep 2018, 7:08 am

Heated. The politicians are bickering.

There's a lot of statements from politicians in the newspapers saying things like "prime ministers plan is rubbish". No published suggestions as to how to fix it, no energy being spent working toward a common goal. Just a few extremely loud and unproductive politicians whining. Possibly this is politics the world over! I voted remain, but personally I support the prime minister in the leave efforts because at least she is putting her energy into forging a deal with Europe and not engaging in the squabbles.

The upside of such fierce debate is that at least the politicians are too busy to get sucked into any more harassment or embezzlement scandals....

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Biscuitman
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26 Sep 2018, 11:30 am

every week I think it must have reached peak posturing by politicians over brexit, yet the following week trumps it

Biscuitman
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14 Oct 2018, 10:47 am

We have entered the twilight zone

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpeM_DzXUAA-gE4?format=jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Mythos
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14 Oct 2018, 2:37 pm

Biscuitman wrote:

We have entered the twilight zone

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DpeM_DzXUAA-gE4?format=jpg

More or less obscene posturing by MPs to push an agenda that could collapse the UK as we know it. Democracy, blah blah, will of the people, blah blah, scaremongering, blah blah, remoaners, etc.

The problem with democracy is that people would claim it undemocratic to have a second referendum. Why? If it's what everybody wants, surely the result would not change? If it does, doesn't that itself prove democracy is a broken system? Too much rhetoric and not enough action. Opposition parties need to rail against this, fast, before it gets out of hand. Or at the very least, allow us who never wanted it in the first place to isolate ourselves from those who did.

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