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Why do people want Trump?

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VegetableMan
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27 Jan 2022, 8:35 pm

cyberdad wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
The Russiagate malarkey was every bit as evidence-free as election fraud. Same s**t, different toilet.


My point was it was taken more seriously by lawmakers than election fraud.


Yeah, unfortunately it was. The MSM has a decidedly Democratic Party bias. And the mindless drones who sucked that s**t up are no better than the right wingers.


Are you suggesting that US lawmakers and intelligence agencies are corrupt and pro-left?


They're pro-corporate state. That's what you don't seen to grasp. Of course they're corrupt! Duh!


No its the "pro-left" bit I don't buy


Look, most of all the bickering that goes on between Dems and Pubs is just for show -- political theater. It's designed to keep people herded to one side or the other so they miss the larger picture of the corruption of the system.

When Trump was in office, the Democrats willfully passed his entire legislative agenda, while pretending to oppose him. It's all smoke and mirrors.


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ironpony
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27 Jan 2022, 8:38 pm

But why can't people in America just agree to disagree, when it comes to politics? I'm in Canada for example, and me and my gf and friends all voted differently in the election, but none of us are deciding to leave each other because of that, are make each other our enemies because of that. We just agree to disagree.

Why can't Americans have that agree to disagree philosophy in that everyone is different and not everyone is going to agree with each other on everything, but that's okay!

Why do so many Americans have this mentality, that my way is the only way, and if you don't agree with me, then you're my enemy and I'm going to take this very personally, philosophy?



cyberdad
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27 Jan 2022, 8:44 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Look, most of all the bickering that goes on between Dems and Pubs is just for show -- political theater. It's designed to keep people herded to one side or the other so they miss the larger picture of the corruption of the system.

When Trump was in office, the Democrats willfully passed his entire legislative agenda, while pretending to oppose him. It's all smoke and mirrors.


Yep, I agree broadly with your point that a lot of this is for show. I'm not really heavily invested in Trump being elected or not elected but the world "feels" safer when a crazy dude isn't running the world.



VegetableMan
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27 Jan 2022, 8:44 pm

ironpony wrote:
But why can't people in America just agree to disagree, when it comes to politics? I'm in Canada for example, and me and my gf and friends all voted differently in the election, but none of us are deciding to leave each other because of that, are make each other our enemies because of that. We just agree to disagree.

Why can't Americans have that agree to disagree philosophy in that everyone is different and not everyone is going to agree with each other on everything, but that's okay!

Why do so many Americans have this mentality, that my way is the only way, and if you don't agree with me, then you're my enemy and I'm going to take this very personally, philosophy?


Because they've been convinced that the other team is the problem, not their team. It's a mindset that maintains the oligarchy. It's the divide and conquer tactic that the ruling class has employed forever. It happens to be very effective.


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cyberdad
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27 Jan 2022, 8:46 pm

ironpony wrote:
Why do so many Americans have this mentality, that my way is the only way, and if you don't agree with me, then you're my enemy and I'm going to take this very personally, philosophy?


Might be the philosophy of "rugged individualism", Americans seem much more self-confident compared Canadians or Australians. They seem to stand behind their self-beliefs about which side they support (like their favourite sports team) and not budge. That makes them Americans I guess?



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27 Jan 2022, 8:50 pm

But I think there is a difference between standing behind your beliefs, and not being okay with other people's beliefs. Can't a person stand behind their beliefs, without feeling they are budging if they don't? There is a difference between being confident and wanting everyone else to think like you. If you want everyone else to think like you and cannot agree to disagree, isn't that more like insecurity, rather than confidence?



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28 Jan 2022, 12:42 am

ironpony wrote:
But I think there is a difference between standing behind your beliefs, and not being okay with other people's beliefs. Can't a person stand behind their beliefs, without feeling they are budging if they don't? There is a difference between being confident and wanting everyone else to think like you. If you want everyone else to think like you and cannot agree to disagree, isn't that more like insecurity, rather than confidence?


Sure! but that's part of self-belief. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong.



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28 Jan 2022, 12:55 am

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But I think there is a difference between standing behind your beliefs, and not being okay with other people's beliefs. Can't a person stand behind their beliefs, without feeling they are budging if they don't? There is a difference between being confident and wanting everyone else to think like you. If you want everyone else to think like you and cannot agree to disagree, isn't that more like insecurity, rather than confidence?


Sure! but that's part of self-belief. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong.


But if this is part of self belief, then how come other cultures are able to agree to disagree without so much fighting, but American culture is not able to? Does American culture take it to more of an extreme? I mean I hear stories in the US of people actually breaking up getting divorced over political disagreements, where as other couples in other cultures seem to be able to agree to disagree, and go by the idealogy that not everyone likes the same thing, but it seems that a lot of Americans cannot handle that and think of disagreement as a huge ego blow in comparison, or so it seems?



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28 Jan 2022, 1:25 am

ironpony wrote:
Does American culture take it to more of an extreme? I mean I hear stories in the US of people actually breaking up getting divorced over political disagreements, where as other couples in other cultures seem to be able to agree to disagree, and go by the idealogy that not everyone likes the same thing, but it seems that a lot of Americans cannot handle that and think of disagreement as a huge ego blow in comparison, or so it seems?


Well that's where the beliefs are so intractable they lead to family conflict. Wouldn't happen in Australia.



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28 Jan 2022, 2:23 am

ironpony wrote:
But why can't people in America just agree to disagree, when it comes to politics? I'm in Canada for example, and me and my gf and friends all voted differently in the election, but none of us are deciding to leave each other because of that, are make each other our enemies because of that. We just agree to disagree.

Why can't Americans have that agree to disagree philosophy in that everyone is different and not everyone is going to agree with each other on everything, but that's okay!

Why do so many Americans have this mentality, that my way is the only way, and if you don't agree with me, then you're my enemy and I'm going to take this very personally, philosophy?

Canada has somewhat of a social democracy. In the US the poor are treated like garbage. Just be happy you don't live here. It's hell for a lot of people.



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28 Jan 2022, 2:26 am

ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But I think there is a difference between standing behind your beliefs, and not being okay with other people's beliefs. Can't a person stand behind their beliefs, without feeling they are budging if they don't? There is a difference between being confident and wanting everyone else to think like you. If you want everyone else to think like you and cannot agree to disagree, isn't that more like insecurity, rather than confidence?


Sure! but that's part of self-belief. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong.


But if this is part of self belief, then how come other cultures are able to agree to disagree without so much fighting, but American culture is not able to? Does American culture take it to more of an extreme? I mean I hear stories in the US of people actually breaking up getting divorced over political disagreements, where as other couples in other cultures seem to be able to agree to disagree, and go by the idealogy that not everyone likes the same thing, but it seems that a lot of Americans cannot handle that and think of disagreement as a huge ego blow in comparison, or so it seems?


Plenty of "beliefs" effect whether people live or die, so of course people are going to fight over them. It isn't like we are fighting over our favorite color.



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28 Jan 2022, 2:30 am

NoClearMind53 wrote:
ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But I think there is a difference between standing behind your beliefs, and not being okay with other people's beliefs. Can't a person stand behind their beliefs, without feeling they are budging if they don't? There is a difference between being confident and wanting everyone else to think like you. If you want everyone else to think like you and cannot agree to disagree, isn't that more like insecurity, rather than confidence?


Sure! but that's part of self-belief. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong.


But if this is part of self belief, then how come other cultures are able to agree to disagree without so much fighting, but American culture is not able to? Does American culture take it to more of an extreme? I mean I hear stories in the US of people actually breaking up getting divorced over political disagreements, where as other couples in other cultures seem to be able to agree to disagree, and go by the idealogy that not everyone likes the same thing, but it seems that a lot of Americans cannot handle that and think of disagreement as a huge ego blow in comparison, or so it seems?


Plenty of "beliefs" effect whether people live or die, so of course people are going to fight over them. It isn't like we are fighting over our favorite color.


I understand that, but in this case of this whole democrat vs. republican fight, how will more people die if one is in power compared to the other though?



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28 Jan 2022, 2:39 am

ironpony wrote:
NoClearMind53 wrote:
ironpony wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
But I think there is a difference between standing behind your beliefs, and not being okay with other people's beliefs. Can't a person stand behind their beliefs, without feeling they are budging if they don't? There is a difference between being confident and wanting everyone else to think like you. If you want everyone else to think like you and cannot agree to disagree, isn't that more like insecurity, rather than confidence?


Sure! but that's part of self-belief. "I'm right and everyone else is wrong.


But if this is part of self belief, then how come other cultures are able to agree to disagree without so much fighting, but American culture is not able to? Does American culture take it to more of an extreme? I mean I hear stories in the US of people actually breaking up getting divorced over political disagreements, where as other couples in other cultures seem to be able to agree to disagree, and go by the idealogy that not everyone likes the same thing, but it seems that a lot of Americans cannot handle that and think of disagreement as a huge ego blow in comparison, or so it seems?


Plenty of "beliefs" effect whether people live or die, so of course people are going to fight over them. It isn't like we are fighting over our favorite color.


I understand that, but in this case of this whole democrat vs. republican fight, how will more people die if one is in power compared to the other though?


Deaths of despair are rising all the time. Homelessness is rising all the time. Our healthcare system price gouges people so many opt to not even bother with treatment for certain things and end up dying. One party, while largely stifled and ineffective, at least pays lip service to these issues. The other one blocks every single thing.



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28 Jan 2022, 3:28 am

NoClearMind53 wrote:
Our healthcare system price gouges people so many opt to not even bother with treatment for certain things and end up dying. One party, while largely stifled and ineffective, at least pays lip service to these issues. The other one blocks every single thing.

As an Englishman used to the UK's NHS, which is itself far from perfect especially these days after years of underfunding and gradual privatisation by right-wing governments, I was astonished to see the American healthcare system close up. My parents-in-law would be bankrupt if not for my wife wearing herself out battling the bureaucracy. They had what health insurance they could afford, but the truth seems to be that if you're not pretty wealthy, once old age begins to break your health, you're pretty much left to the wolves. Trump said he was going to fix the problem, but the problem is still there. Considering that one of his initiatives was to accuse Europe of stealing from America by paying lower prices for their drugs, I'm not surprised he failed. Sure, Europe pays less, because they have centralised healthcare systems that have strong bargaining power to beat down the private drug companies' prices. But that's not the reason why Americans pay more. They pay more because they have a private, fragmented system of health insurance companies who can't get their act together to negotiate fair prices. And of course those insurance companies take a handsome cut for themselves.



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28 Jan 2022, 3:48 am

Dox47 wrote:
He styles himself a business mogul, and the suit is the costume for that role, right down to the extra long power tie.

I see. It's always been a mystery to me why a suit per se commands any special respect from anybody, but I never thought anybody could see a man in a suit as a rebel. And I used to think that anybody in politics flaunting their business mogul credentials would be immediately flagged up as part of the problem by anybody feeling they weren't getting a fair slice of the national wealth. The popularity of the British royal family among the proletariat always similarly struck me as irrational, though we may be witnessing the beginning of the end for that institution.



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28 Jan 2022, 10:31 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
I see. It's always been a mystery to me why a suit per se commands any special respect from anybody, but I never thought anybody could see a man in a suit as a rebel. And I used to think that anybody in politics flaunting their business mogul credentials would be immediately flagged up as part of the problem by anybody feeling they weren't getting a fair slice of the national wealth.


Eh, I think you're over-analyzing here, it's just a sartorial choice, and the expected one for a politician in the US. Trump's suits were a little different in that they were dated, his style really was stuck in the late 80s, but aside from that they were perfectly normal for someone seeking and occupying a political office here, what was different and rebellious was what came out of his mouth, both in the coarseness of what he said and in his willingness to go against the orthodoxy of not just the Democratic party, but the the GOP as well. He gleefully shredded Reagan's 11th Commandment, "thou shallt not speak ill of a fellow Republican in public", which was thrilling to a GOP base who'd long felt betrayed by their own elite, and if anything, wearing a suit while he did it might have created a little extra frisson, like hearing your teacher curse, the dissonance making it more striking.


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