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The "Black Hole" of woke....

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League_Girl
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25 Aug 2022, 10:40 pm

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I dont get the point and I have never seen anyone saying "women" is an insult, only females if you are not referring men as males so i dont believe a word Dox47 is saying. Something must have happened to make him act this way because it's so out of character.


I'm trying to get you to understand that wokeness is not the same thing as civil rights for women and minorities, that it refers to a much more radical school of thought where identity is the most important thing about a person, and that some of them absolutely would call you a bigot for using a gendered word like "woman". I've explained it to you many times over the years without effect, so I decided to try a different approach, which apparently wasn't obvious enough for this board.



Okay, so you have a different view on what wokism is. I am only using the dictionary definition of the word. So I don't recall you saying some people will think of me as a bigot for mentioning women.


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Dox47
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25 Aug 2022, 11:43 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Okay, so you have a different view on what wokism is. I am only using the dictionary definition of the word. So I don't recall you saying some people will think of me as a bigot for mentioning women.


The dictionary definition is incorrect and does not reflect how the word is actually used or the ideology it refers to, as I've explained ad nauseam here, including to you. At this point, I think I'm going to have to throw in the towel as I don't think you can get it, while with some of the others I think the misunderstanding is very deliberate as it's so advantageous for debating purposes.


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cyberdad
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25 Aug 2022, 11:51 pm

Dox47 wrote:
The dictionary definition is incorrect and does not reflect how the word is actually used or the ideology it refers to


So who do we rely on for an agreed definition and ideology? MAGAs?



IsabellaLinton
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25 Aug 2022, 11:55 pm

Good grief.
Women can't be called women?
I thought we were all supposed to be proud of our personal identity?
Why can't women be proud to be women, if that's their identity?


I understand "people with uteruses" etc., regarding reproduction.
Trans-men can menstruate and have babies.
I don't have a problem with that term because it is inclusive.

It doesn't mean a woman can't be called a woman.


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League_Girl
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26 Aug 2022, 12:41 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Good grief.
Women can't be called women?
I thought we were all supposed to be proud of our personal identity?
Why can't women be proud to be women, if that's their identity?


I understand "people with uteruses" etc., regarding reproduction.
Trans-men can menstruate and have babies.
I don't have a problem with that term because it is inclusive.

It doesn't mean a woman can't be called a woman.



Is that what this is about? I don't think that is wokeism at all. Just absurdity and people looking for things to get offended about. Yes non binary people get their periods and so do trans men. When people talk about women having periods, they are not saying trans people don't get them. Women are the majority then trans gender people, so often people will say women. They can join in on the topic about periods as well than getting all offended. I am sure some will call this woke.

If someone wants to say "people with a uterus, how do you deal with your heavy menstrual flows?" I won't be offended. If someone else asks that same question but says women instead if people, I still won't be offended.


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Last edited by League_Girl on 26 Aug 2022, 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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26 Aug 2022, 12:41 am

League_Girl wrote:

So I will never understand how wokism is bad when it has made good changes. I guess people are afraid of change because they are so used to it. I am sure people felt the same way then when things were changing. Racists were mad when the slaves were freed or when Jim Crow laws ended. But hey, ending slavery would be wokism and ending Jim Crow laws.


I don't think that the kind of "woke" that you and I consider to be positive involves many of the more extreme things that make critics roll their eyes. Wanting to disown all sorts of common terminology, not just the historically hurtful ones; that sort of thing. I suspect that neither of us are plugged in enough to the more extreme and trendy ends of the conversation to even know the "woke" policy suggestions critics get so upset about.

To me, that signals the critics are focusing on stuff that is extreme even within the movement to be more inclusive. If it wasn't extreme and uncommon, I believe people like you and I would be more aware of it.

I say all the time that the "right" paints the left with far too broad a brush, based on things that aren't really common beliefs or priorities on the left (a problem that can flow left to right just as easily as it flows right to left). The same goes for how critics see the concept of "woke." They find the most ridiculous statements out there made in the name of inclusiveness and use them to disparage the entire concept.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 26 Aug 2022, 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

DW_a_mom
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26 Aug 2022, 12:49 am

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Okay, so you have a different view on what wokism is. I am only using the dictionary definition of the word. So I don't recall you saying some people will think of me as a bigot for mentioning women.


The dictionary definition is incorrect and does not reflect how the word is actually used or the ideology it refers to, as I've explained ad nauseam here, including to you. At this point, I think I'm going to have to throw in the towel as I don't think you can get it, while with some of the others I think the misunderstanding is very deliberate as it's so advantageous for debating purposes.


The problem with any "slang" term, including "woke," is that there really is no one, single and consistently used definition. We can agree on the broad concept, but different social groups, regions, and partisans are all going to put their own spin on it.

I'd rather just not use the word "woke" at all at this point. It is not used precisely and consistently enough to accurately convey meaning.

PS - I do now "get" the snarky statement you wrote pages ago, but also think it is a solid example of how so much in this debate falls flat because of misunderstandings about what is involved.


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Tweety_Pie
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26 Aug 2022, 1:11 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Good grief.
Women can't be called women?
I thought we were all supposed to be proud of our personal identity?
Why can't women be proud to be women, if that's their identity?


Agreed.

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I understand "people with uteruses" etc., regarding reproduction.
Trans-men can menstruate and have babies.
I don't have a problem with that term because it is inclusive.

It doesn't mean a woman can't be called a woman.


I have a problem with it. It's really objectifying.



IsabellaLinton
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26 Aug 2022, 1:13 am

How is it objectifying?

I'm a woman and I don't have a uterus.


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Tweety_Pie
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26 Aug 2022, 1:15 am

It's making out the majority of women who do have uteruses not to be women. It's removing their identity.

Another way of putting it is it is like calling them robots or machines that give birth. It's objectifying, and misses out their identity as a woman.

You had a uterus once, right?



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26 Aug 2022, 2:42 am

I'm beginning to see why right wing podcasters do interviews with people on the street asking the question what is a woman?

They sure do love to stir the pot



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26 Aug 2022, 2:54 am

Tweety_Pie wrote:
It's making out the majority of women who do have uteruses not to be women. It's removing their identity.

Another way of putting it is it is like calling them robots or machines that give birth. It's objectifying, and misses out their identity as a woman.

You had a uterus once, right?


Yes I had one once.
I was a woman then and I'm a woman now.
I still identify as "a person with a uterus" though, since I've had babies.


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The_Walrus
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26 Aug 2022, 4:31 am

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Okay, so you have a different view on what wokism is. I am only using the dictionary definition of the word. So I don't recall you saying some people will think of me as a bigot for mentioning women.


The dictionary definition is incorrect and does not reflect how the word is actually used or the ideology it refers to, as I've explained ad nauseam here, including to you. At this point, I think I'm going to have to throw in the towel as I don't think you can get it, while with some of the others I think the misunderstanding is very deliberate as it's so advantageous for debating purposes.

Come on, Dox, you’d have to be living under a rock to either think that a substantial amount of people think the word “women” is violence, or that sort of thing is what is usually referred to by the term “woke”.

To give examples, look at the rag-tag selection of “anti-woke” policies proposed here: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/tor ... -manifesto

Or the ideas that Kemi Badenoch proposes here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-62176280

Or the s**t Ron DeSantis is pushing here:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 48079.html

Or Disney being “woke” for including a Muslim character: https://www.newsweek.com/disney-woke-cr ... el-1721497

Or whatever the f**k the people in this article are actually complaining about: https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/woke- ... g-politics

Or right here on WrongPlanet, take a gander at post 3 for example which says that removing statues honouring Robert E. Lee is evidence of anti-white prejudice: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=394193&start=0

So woke, things include employers hiring someone to look after employee wellbeing, gender neutral bathrooms, immigration, judicial review, Muslims on television, gay pride parades, being against forcing schools to out queer kids to their parents, and taking down monuments honouring people who fought for slavery.

It’s disingenuous to claim that the only people who get called “woke”, or even the people who are usually getting called “woke”, are the people calling themselves “wombyn”.



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26 Aug 2022, 4:54 am

The_Walrus wrote:
It’s disingenuous to claim that the only people who get called “woke”, or even the people who are usually getting called “woke”, are the people calling themselves “wombyn”.

I'm reporting anyone who doesn't call me wombyn.


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26 Aug 2022, 5:29 am

Where_am_I wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
It’s disingenuous to claim that the only people who get called “woke”, or even the people who are usually getting called “woke”, are the people calling themselves “wombyn”.

I'm reporting anyone who doesn't call me wombyn.


Hi wombyn, pleased to meet you.


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The_Walrus
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26 Aug 2022, 5:53 am

Tweety_Pie wrote:
It's making out the majority of women who do have uteruses not to be women. It's removing their identity.

Another way of putting it is it is like calling them robots or machines that give birth. It's objectifying, and misses out their identity as a woman.

You had a uterus once, right?

The phrase “people with uteruses” in no way suggests that women with uteruses are not women. Or do you think that women aren’t people?

The fact is that some people with uteruses are not women, and some women do not have uteruses.

Would you prefer, “men, women, and non-binary people with uteruses”?