What are tankies? (why are they like that?)

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roronoa79
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31 Jul 2023, 2:16 pm

As has been said, tankie originated to describe communists outside the USSR who condoned the forcible suppression of the Hungarian Revolution. Thus, "tankie", refers originally to a leftist who rationalizes or defends the atrocities of leftist regimes solely because they are leftist (or call themselves such). For me personally, a tankie is a leftist who has not yet had a "Kronstadt moment". Ie: a moment where you realize: "Maybe I should not mindlessly agree with everything a leftist regime does just because it is a leftist regime." For many this was the Hungarian Revolution. For others it was the Kronstadt Uprising, the Holodomor, the suppression of the Greens, the betrayal of the Blacks (the anarchists, not Africans), the prohibition of non-Bolshevik socialist and anarchist political parties, the Great Leap Forward, the development of cults of personality around communist party leaders, the crushing of the Prague Spring, or...anything Pol Pot did.
The term, like so many others, has been thrown around so much as to become almost meaningless. One person's tankie is another person's spineless, bootlicking capitalist apologist. It's like "fascist", but applied to leftists primarily by other leftists. Most anyone to the left of social democrats is prone to being labelled a tankie by someone or other.


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31 Jul 2023, 4:35 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
As has been said, tankie originated to describe communists outside the USSR who condoned the forcible suppression of the Hungarian Revolution.


Yes, and those who later supported the crushing of dissent in Czechoslovakia.


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31 Jul 2023, 4:38 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Nominalist - I am happy to see you back here. You are one of those users who I often think about fondly :)


Thank you, my friend. Since I am now retired, I have the time to wander.


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roronoa79
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02 Aug 2023, 11:04 am

nominalist wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
As has been said, tankie originated to describe communists outside the USSR who condoned the forcible suppression of the Hungarian Revolution.


Yes, and those who later supported the crushing of dissent in Czechoslovakia.

It's bad enough that these attempts at democratization were violently suppressed--its worse that tankies opposed Czech attempts at democratic reform within the communist system. Like what more do you want? If you support the actions of the Warsaw Pact during the Prague Spring then you don't support communism--you support whatever a political party does as long as it calls itself communist--even if you would decry it as inexcusable if a nationalist/capitalist party did the exact same thing. It's s*** like that that makes the rest of us leftists look like doe-eyed, mindless sheeple to the party line.


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Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

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02 Aug 2023, 12:24 pm

ANNOYING LEFTIST HERE!

We, those billions upon billions of Human Beings, are NEVER going to get out of the very real existential threat that has been wrought upon all of Humanity by Capitalism, and the psychotic ghouls it rewards, for no other reason than to make profit for that tiny Class, if We continue to argue inane BS 24/7.

Better, We ALL need to come together, to LEARN THE TRUTH of this disastrous system, to wade through ALL THE LIES it produces to keep Us confused, divided, fooled, and made effectively impotent against its power over Us, to reach an effective mass movement. This includes countering any and all idiotic tendencies to argue for the very false notions propagated and perpetuated by the Capitalistic system. This includes arguing about stupid terms used by psyops to keep Us divided.

The system doesn't care about you, other than that you give it your life, in order to keep the system going. This MUST STOP, or We all will suffer fates that are far worse than anything that has come before.

That said, it annoys me to no end that y'all (some of you) are supposedly so "smart", yet none of you can see THE OBVIOUS TRUTH. You prove this time and time again. I wish you'd "get it' already.


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02 Aug 2023, 12:45 pm

mrpieceofwork wrote:
ANNOYING LEFTIST HERE!

We, those billions upon billions of Human Beings, are NEVER going to get out of the very real existential threat that has been wrought upon all of Humanity by Capitalism, and the psychotic ghouls it rewards, for no other reason than to make profit for that tiny Class, if We continue to argue inane BS 24/7.

Better, We ALL need to come together, to LEARN THE TRUTH of this disastrous system, to wade through ALL THE LIES it produces to keep Us confused, divided, fooled, and made effectively impotent against its power over Us, to reach an effective mass movement. This includes countering any and all idiotic tendencies to argue for the very false notions propagated and perpetuated by the Capitalistic system. This includes arguing about stupid terms used by psyops to keep Us divided.

The system doesn't care about you, other than that you give it your life, in order to keep the system going. This MUST STOP, or We all will suffer fates that are far worse than anything that has come before.

That said, it annoys me to no end that y'all (some of you) are supposedly so "smart", yet none of you can see THE OBVIOUS TRUTH. You prove this time and time again. I wish you'd "get it' already.


I love capitalism though.



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03 Aug 2023, 9:46 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
It's bad enough that these attempts at democratization were violently suppressed--its worse that tankies opposed Czech attempts at democratic reform within the communist system. Like what more do you want? If you support the actions of the Warsaw Pact during the Prague Spring then you don't support communism--you support whatever a political party does as long as it calls itself communist--even if you would decry it as inexcusable if a nationalist/capitalist party did the exact same thing. It's s*** like that that makes the rest of us leftists look like doe-eyed, mindless sheeple to the party line.


You made a number of controversial assumptions without supporting them. For example, why would you think that supporters of the Warsaw Pact would also support any political party which calls itself communist? Most people are smarter than that.


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05 Aug 2023, 9:26 am

nominalist wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
A lot of things he said just seemed to be completely wrong. For example, he says that nobody ever said that Stalin or Mao did nothing wrong, but those are fairly common sentiments among the online left - you don't have to look very far to find whole subreddits dedicated to those ideas.

One of the tricks of the very far left is to be so ridiculous that no one will ever believe they are like that.

Anyone who says that should not be taken seriously. We are all just humans.

It doesn't need to be intentional. Whatever works, works, whether it was intentional or not.


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05 Aug 2023, 6:55 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
It doesn't need to be intentional. Whatever works, works, whether it was intentional or not.


Your comment is vague. You would need to be specific. For instance, I never said that something had to be intentional in order to work.


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05 Aug 2023, 8:17 pm

Based on my understanding of the term the video gave an overly sympathetic explanation, likely aiming at other lefties to make them reconsider their views towards tankies.

As a political bloc it's hard to sympathize with people who support violently crushing attempts at reform from within in single party ML states. Those sorts of dictatorships already are disadvantaged when it comes to responding to popular pressure, instead of responding violently they should be coming up with means by which to address that pressure. Failure to do so ensures things reach boiling points at times, and just laying a whooping isn't actually a solution.

Personally, I would say the apologia for regimes like Putin comes from both a mixture of traditional left and authoritarian right blocs. You have people who's knee-jerk opposition to NATO pre-dates the end of the USSR (or was inherited from those sorts) and you have people who see traditionalist and authoritarian regimes as a preferable model to liberal democracy. There's a small overlap between those sorts, but mostly they're just united by hating liberals and hating NATO.


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06 Aug 2023, 4:04 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Personally, I would say the apologia for regimes like Putin comes from both a mixture of traditional left and authoritarian right blocs.


Putin is a fascist, not a communist. He favorite philosopher is the Russian fascist Ivan Ilyin.

https://duclarion.com/2022/04/how-under ... mir-putin/


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06 Aug 2023, 6:46 pm

nominalist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Personally, I would say the apologia for regimes like Putin comes from both a mixture of traditional left and authoritarian right blocs.


Putin is a fascist, not a communist. He favorite philosopher is the Russian fascist Ivan Ilyin.

https://duclarion.com/2022/04/how-under ... mir-putin/


When was it ever suggested that Putin is a communist? :scratch:


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07 Aug 2023, 12:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
When was it ever suggested that Putin is a communist? :scratch:


You associated Putin with the traditional left. Fascism is the traditional (or, more precisely, traditionalist) right.


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07 Aug 2023, 12:21 pm

nominalist wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
When was it ever suggested that Putin is a communist? :scratch:


You associated Putin with the traditional left. Fascism is the traditional (or, more precisely, traditionalist) right.


Read what I said again:

funeralxempire wrote:
Personally, I would say the apologia for regimes like Putin comes from both a mixture of traditional left and authoritarian right blocs.


I said some of Putin's western supporters are part of the traditional left. That's not at all synonymous with what you're claiming I've said.


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07 Aug 2023, 6:04 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Read what I said again:

funeralxempire wrote:
Personally, I would say the apologia for regimes like Putin comes from both a mixture of traditional left and authoritarian right blocs.


I said some of Putin's western supporters are part of the traditional left. That's not at all synonymous with what you're claiming I've said.


Okay. In that case, I apologize. I agree with you. Many Marxist-Leninist groups do support Putin. Their support of Putin stems primarily from their opposition to Western imperialism. They are unwilling, for theoretical reasons, to acknowledge the existence of Russian imperialism. I do acknowledge it. Hence, I am a critical realist and a Maoist-Third Worldist (a few generations removed from Marxism-Leninism), not a Marxist-Leninist.


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09 Aug 2023, 8:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
I'm not sure your description matches the video.

The video doesn't seem to be so much "why are tankies like that?" as "all socialists are tankies and that's a good thing".

What kind of junior mint nutcase would think sending in the tanks to quash protest is a good thing.

I like how the video calls the violence in Hungary "an intervention". That's the best euphamism since the Korean War was called "a police action".

The_Walrus wrote:
A lot of things he said just seemed to be completely wrong. For example, he says that nobody ever said that Stalin or Mao did nothing wrong, but those are fairly common sentiments among the online left - you don't have to look very far to find whole subreddits dedicated to those ideas.

You don't have to look very far? You only have to go as far as the comments section of that video to find "knew a guy who defended made up atrocities from anti-communist propaganda (emphasis mine) just because it said Stalin did them.

The idea every report of the Soviets doing something bad is anti-communist propaganda, as though the Soviets never did anything wrong. Yet they uncritically believe any bad thing said about a NATO country.

They mock the idea that communists killed "gazillions of people" yet repeat the line that "capitalism killed x million people. Why is the idea that capitalism killed millions of people so readily acceptable while the very similar idea that communists killed millions of people so absurd?


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