What do you think about free will?

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Carbonhalo
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31 Oct 2024, 1:23 am

Aspinator
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31 Oct 2024, 1:40 am

Gentleman Argentum
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31 Oct 2024, 1:52 am

P. Zombie wrote:

That is what my Father liked to talk about too. He was for Free Will. I always suspected that the argument is based upon false premises and consists of a lot of speculation on things we cannot possibly know.

P. Zombie wrote:

First, I could ask politely if one isn’t conflating determinism with fatalism (like, for instance, the show “Devs” do, imho). In the famous story, Oedipus is fated to kill his father and marry his mother, and whatever he does, it doesn’t change his destiny. His story is about fatalism, not about determinism. Determinism works just the other way around – we are in certain conditions, BECAUSE we acted in some way earlier, and not IN SPITE OF our actions.

Interesting. I have a movie recommendation for you: "Ink (2009)." It explores these themes of free will versus determinism. What I like in particular is how apparently unrelated, seemingly random events combine to achieve specific outcomes desired by a supernatural agency.

P. Zombie wrote:

Obviously, there are always sceptics lurking in the corner, claiming that free will just can’t exist, because both determined causes and random causes are not free. There are people who believe in some other form of causation – not determined and not random – but I don’t get them and it seems too magical to me.

Free will does not exist, when we consider the ability to do complex math, or to change one's inherent nature from a shy and retiring introvert to a charismatic celebrity. I think there are immovable limits upon free will.

Free will does exist, when we consider the ability to reform existing vices such as drinking and using drugs. That to me, in my life, appeared as a Choice in every possible way.

I would say there is a modest scope for Free Will in every life, even down to the animals such as cats and dogs. We have definite predetermined limits imposed by biology and the environment, as anyone with Asperger's Syndrome would know. Yet it is still possible to make certain choices within those limits.

P. Zombie wrote:

Also, I have a thought experiment. Let’s pretend I’m a complicated person and have three culinary desires at once! I want to eat a sandwich or a pancake or a donut, and don’t know which one to choose. What to do, what to do? My final decision depends on probabilities of each choice. In a fully deterministic world, one choice has a chance of 100% (let’s say it’s a pancake) and others have 0%. I don’t know it, because I’m stupid. In a fully chaotic world, the probabilities are equal (there’s also a probability that I’ll explode before I manage to eat, or that the whole world will explode). In a “middle way” world the chances are, let’s say, 70% for a pancake, 20% for a sandwich and 10% for a donut, or any other probabilities between totally equal and “one takes it all”. In all worlds the final decision is a combination of causes-effects and random selections. Why would any of them guarantee more free will than the others?

So… what do you think about free will?

If drilling down to why our brain makes certain choices at a given moment, the answer is not clear at this time, although we are learning about our own biology.

It may be that the human brain equates to a complicated robot. I don't rule that out. It may be that an enormous pack of source code can accurately describe all of our mental processes and preserve our brains within computers. This does not preclude the existence of a soul or of a Deity or magic. By analyzing all of the source code, perhaps you could predict your choice of sandwich or a pancake or a donut at a given moment in time. That would mean that we need to expand our view of what free will is, exactly.

Within the source code, there is still the facility for self-editing, self-coding, and bug-fixing. There are internal processes that constantly write new code and fix broken code. So, the question of determinism vs. free will becomes problematic very quickly when we think about these things. Yes, we are deterministic in terms of being compilations of source code (DNA). Yet we have enormous capacity for reconfiguring ourselves and adapting to our environments.

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Texasmoneyman300
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31 Oct 2024, 8:34 pm

P. Zombie wrote:

Asking people about free will is my idea of small talk. In a perfect world I would get to know anyone by asking “do you believe in free will?”. Then, they might say “it depends on whether the world is deterministic”, and I might say “great, I disagree!”, and we could have a whole-hearted argument.

First, I could ask politely if one isn’t conflating determinism with fatalism (like, for instance, the show “Devs” do, imho). In the famous story, Oedipus is fated to kill his father and marry his mother, and whatever he does, it doesn’t change his destiny. His story is about fatalism, not about determinism. Determinism works just the other way around – we are in certain conditions, BECAUSE we acted in some way earlier, and not IN SPITE OF our actions.

Among many “free will experts”, a common view is that the question of determinism and the question of free will are independent. The first one is for scientists and the second for philosophers (so we can be sure, we’ll never get the answer, as they didn’t give a single answer in the last 2500 years). So called compatibilists believe that free will is compatible with determinism, e.g. because it allows our actions to be caused by our beliefs and desires. Incompatibilists disagree, because they think a possibility to act in different ways is required to have free will. Then, compatibilists say determinism is compatible with the everyday notion of different possibilities, and then they fight. Incompatibilists seem to have total dominance in popular culture and it’s annoying, but I get it – compatibilism doesn’t have much potential for drama.

Obviously, there are always sceptics lurking in the corner, claiming that free will just can’t exist, because both determined causes and random causes are not free. There are people who believe in some other form of causation – not determined and not random – but I don’t get them and it seems too magical to me.

Also, I have a thought experiment. Let’s pretend I’m a complicated person and have three culinary desires at once! I want to eat a sandwich or a pancake or a donut, and don’t know which one to choose. What to do, what to do? My final decision depends on probabilities of each choice. In a fully deterministic world, one choice has a chance of 100% (let’s say it’s a pancake) and others have 0%. I don’t know it, because I’m stupid. In a fully chaotic world, the probabilities are equal (there’s also a probability that I’ll explode before I manage to eat, or that the whole world will explode). In a “middle way” world the chances are, let’s say, 70% for a pancake, 20% for a sandwich and 10% for a donut, or any other probabilities between totally equal and “one takes it all”. In all worlds the final decision is a combination of causes-effects and random selections. Why would any of them guarantee more free will than the others?

So… what do you think about free will?

I dont believe in free will....never have really.I believe in predestination instead

P. Zombie
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01 Nov 2024, 5:32 am

babybird wrote:

In fact I'm gonna extend on what I said before and say that I think the only thing that's determined is death and it's all free will up to then

Is it free, BECAUSE it's not determined up to then, or is it free even if it is determined, but I don't know it's determined? :-|

Gentleman Argentum wrote:

So, you're proposing the view of free will as control over different aspects of oneself? If that's the case, would you agree, that:
- Free will is a spectrum, not a binary phenomenon? One can specify "levels of free will", e.g. lvl 1 - control over one's behavior; lvl 2 - control over one's beliefs and desires; lvl3 - control over one's own nature?
- One's degree of free will can change over time?
- This view is compatible with determinism? After all, control over various aspects of oneself is a set of neural processes?

Gentleman Argentum wrote:

It may be that the human brain equates to a complicated robot. (...) By analyzing all of the source code, perhaps you could predict your choice of sandwich or a pancake or a donut at a given moment in time. That would mean that we need to expand our view of what free will is, exactly. Within the source code, there is still the facility for self-editing, self-coding, and bug-fixing.

I think if one understands free will as a control over oneself, the possibility of fully describing one's mind as a computer program, and predicting one's actions, is actually not a problem. Control is one of the program's functions / modules, which, as you've written, can edit other parts of code. It can be a fully deterministic code, but a code that has some control over itself, which makes it free. Also, thanks for the movie recommendation!

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babybird
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01 Nov 2024, 11:57 am

I like the thought of free will because it means that I'm the one who's made achievents based on my own decisions

Otherwise what's the point

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ToughDiamond
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01 Nov 2024, 12:44 pm

babybird wrote:

I like the thought of free will because it means that I'm the one who's made achievents based on my own decisions

Otherwise what's the point

You're still the one who's done all those things whether free will is real or not. It's just that if there is no free will, you did it because you couldn't help it. It's tempting to think that without believing in free will you couldn't then take any personal pride in your actions, but if it's predetermined that you'll be proud of yourself, you'll be proud of yourself anyway.

Free will always seems to me like a lot of hard work, like having to drive the car all the time instead of taking a back seat and just being along for the ride. It can be fun to drive of course, but in excess it gets tiring and it's nice to let the universe take over the hard labour sometimes.

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01 Nov 2024, 12:58 pm

Yeah

I always remember someone (about 25+ years ago) telling me a story:it was about a man who had a premonition that he was going to die in an accident so he stayed at home and refused to go out so he could avoid the accident

His roof collapsed and he was crushed under the rubble

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ToughDiamond
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01 Nov 2024, 1:05 pm

Reminds me of a chain smoker in the X-Files who asked a clairvoyant whether he was going to die of lung cancer. He was told that he wasn't, so he was very relieved. Then a truck ran over him and killed him instantly. Still better than lung cancer though.

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04 Nov 2024, 6:38 pm

Free will is limited much like my understanding of philosophy. :lol:

Alright. Let's say we have a person called Amy.

Can Amy decide when she will wake up?

Well, yes and no.

Let's say Amy has a job and she has to wake up at a certain time to commute to work.

Is it Amy's decision to wake up at that time?

Well, she is required to do so if she wants to make it on time to work and not get fired.

Was it her decision to get a job?

Well, Amy enjoys not starving and paying her rent, so while she decided to do so...it wasn't much of a choice.

Can she decide to ignore her alarm, sleep in and simply not go because she doesn't want to?

I mean, she can, not consistently since that would have consequences, but if she wanted to pull a sickie today she could.

Alright, let's say she's had enough of her job and decides to pull a sickie. She goes over to her wardrobe to see if she has any decent clothes (for potential interviews for a better job) and...oh no. Her clothes are in tatters. Welp. Time to go shopping.

Does she buy online for the convenience? Well, she checks out a website but the delivery drivers are treated horrendously and anything returned goes straight to landfill. Does she really want to support such a business? Besides, the drivers never find her house anyway or charge her extra for living so remote. She puts on her shoes and goes out to the shops instead.

Amy wants to make an ethical choice, but can she? Well, she stumbles upon a fairtrade business that offers clothes and...she can't afford those prices. The store next door is cheaper but the clothes won't last long because they were made with cheap materials and by the hands of modern day slavery. If she chooses the second option, is Amy condoning such practices? Well, no, she is limited by the resources she has. She doesn't want to contribute to a corrupt system but she needs clothes to function in society. Especially if she wants a better job.

Amy sees a thrift store. Great! Except the growing popularity of the store and the price to rent out the physical space means that they've started charging more. Not so great. It's worrying that the thrift store won't take some of the stock from that cheap store she went into earlier because they know it won't last. Oh dear.

Maybe the job isn't so bad after all. Perhaps it's the commute that's getting her down. Well, she could move closer, cut down on commute time - wait, can she move? Depends. Maybe she can afford to do so. No wait, they've gentrified the area and prices are out of control. Swell!

Amy opens her eyes to her alarm. She goes to work. Maybe next time.

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P. Zombie
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06 Nov 2024, 11:22 am

Lost_dragon wrote:

Alright. Let's say we have a person called Amy.

Your example can be interpreted in several ways, e.g.:
- If you look closely at any decision, you see it's determined by multiple constraints, both external (like lack of money) and internal (like tendency to overthink), so free will doesn't exist.
- Free will does exist, but is limited to a very narrow set of possibilities. If so, basic questions remain - what actually is free will, is it compatible with determinism and so on.
- Amy's final choice to go to work is based on her rational thinking and moral values, which is exactly what makes it free. A decision NOT to make any change is also a decision. So, free will exists, hurray.
- Free will is a subjective perception of having possibilities. To have free will means to have a feeling that one have multiple options, nevermind if one actually has them in some objective, third-person way.

Which one do you prefer?

Lost_dragon wrote:

Free will is limited much like my understanding of philosophy. :lol:

Which means it actually exists (both free will and your understanding of philosophy)? :wink:

Lost_dragon wrote:

Well, Amy enjoys not starving and paying her rent

Nice, we have some common interests

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