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Magnus
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31 Dec 2009, 11:27 pm

What could change that? Logic? no...if that were the case we'd all think the same way...

Personal experience? Perhaps...

Love? That will warp your mind....

Truth? It's all subjective.

Jessica Alba?

hahaha

but...

why?


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greenblue
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01 Jan 2010, 12:04 am

Personal experience: I would say yes, wouldn't that be the stronger factor?

Love: Romantic love? Very likely, yes.

Truth? It's all subjective: Truth is in the eye of the beholder, that doesn't mean the beholder can't be right.

Jessica Alba? Yes, she will definitely change my beliefs.


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Magnus
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01 Jan 2010, 12:07 am

Aww...I missed you greenblue. Where have you been? Everyone loves honesty.

Happy New Year!


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As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

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DentArthurDent
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01 Jan 2010, 3:40 am

Well your post title says 'who' so I will go with that to begin with;

Jesus, Archangel Gabriel, Satan and God to name four; but I would need to see ID.

What changes my mind,

- For hard held philosophical / ideological beliefs generally a well presented, objective, cohesive, provable fact laden rebuttal of my belief will change my mind.

- For opinions on people - apologies or explanations backed up by Actions.

And if you think I am to hard headed to have my opinions changed, ask Orwell.


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irishaspie
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01 Jan 2010, 8:02 am

yeah id need a visit from god to change what i think.


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leejosepho
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01 Jan 2010, 8:15 am

Action. Action can “change my beliefs” (proving spiritual things true) as long as ego and/or intellectual pride are not blocking the way.


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Wombat
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01 Jan 2010, 8:21 am

Who could change my belief?

Anyone.

If you can logically prove to me that what I thought to be true isn't true then I will change my opinion. If you quote facts and figures that I can check that will prove that my previous opinion was wrong then I will change my belief.



ruveyn
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01 Jan 2010, 8:24 am

Magnus wrote:
What could change that? Logic? no...if that were the case we'd all think the same way...

Personal experience? Perhaps...

Love? That will warp your mind....

Truth? It's all subjective.

Jessica Alba?

hahaha

but...

why?


It is more a matter of what than a matter of who. If there was an unambiguous experiment that could demonstrate mass could be moved from rest to greater than the speed of light, my beliefs concerning relativity theory would be radically altered.

ruveyn



Gromit
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01 Jan 2010, 1:25 pm

Magnus wrote:
What could change that? Logic?
Sure.

Magnus wrote:
no...if that were the case we'd all think the same way...
Only if all our reasoning were deductive and we all agreed on the premises. Much of our reasoning is inductive and prior beliefs make a difference to that.

Magnus wrote:
Personal experience?
Depends on how relevant I think my previous experience is.

Magnus wrote:
Love? That will warp your mind....
If you know it will all end in tears, don't let it happen.

Magnus wrote:
Truth?
If that doesn't, nothing can. The problem lies in what you accept as definitely or probably true.

Magnus wrote:
It's all subjective.

Image

Magnus wrote:
Jessica Alba?
That goes back to the title, who could change my beliefs. Anyone arguing a topic that interests me enough to listen, starts with premises I am willing to accept (if I don't know the relevant facts or if I am presented with data in conflict with what I think is true, that will depend on how honest and well informed I think that person is) and gives me a well reasoned argument. Is Jessica Alba exceptional regarding these criteria?



TheOddGoat
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01 Jan 2010, 1:54 pm

Magnus wrote:
What could change that? no...if that were the case we'd all think the same way...

Personal experience? Perhaps...

Love? That will warp your mind....

Truth? It's all subjective.

Jessica Alba?

hahaha

but...

why?


Logic? Well yes, if it was solid and I understood it.


Personal experience? .... Is there anything else?

Love? Not sure if I feel it.

Truth? Truth isn't a cause or reason for belief. Truth is what you think the things you believe are because of the reasons you believe them.

"I think therefore I am" is about the only thing I have real confidence in. Everything after that has a lot of problems.



DW_a_mom
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01 Jan 2010, 4:23 pm

Many people have changed my beliefs; not usually a flip, but often an evolution or adjustment. Give me a rational that I have never considered, and I will have to figure out how to fit it in. Logic alone isn't enough, because belief systems tend to transcend logic, and I find logic to be a very personal thing; one person's logic may be anothers fantasy. Real life applications and examples, however - that is something real and tangible, that one must accomodate. I try not to give preference to who the person promoting the idea is; if the example is solid, it's solid, and it shouldn't matter who delivered it.


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TheOddGoat
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01 Jan 2010, 5:17 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Many people have changed my beliefs; not usually a flip, but often an evolution or adjustment. Give me a rational that I have never considered, and I will have to figure out how to fit it in. Logic alone isn't enough, because belief systems tend to transcend logic, and I find logic to be a very personal thing; one person's logic may be anothers fantasy. Real life applications and examples, however - that is something real and tangible, that one must accomodate. I try not to give preference to who the person promoting the idea is; if the example is solid, it's solid, and it shouldn't matter who delivered it.


Logic is definitely not personal.

Logic is :

"The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning."

"Logic alone isn't enough, because belief systems tend to transcend logic."

"A exceeds B, therefore B is not enough." Is what you are saying, but this isn't true.

"A exceeds B, therefore B is not enough or A is too much" would be better, and then you don't really have anything. This is why logic isn't personal, it can only show truths unless you do it wrong. But most of what it can tell you is just a bunch of obvious tautologies.

Your example is based on your assumption that belief or faith is "better" than tautologies or logic. You are going by "more is better" rather than taking occam's razor into consideration. A Rude Goldberg machine for toasting bread would transcend a toaster, does this mean it is the right or best way to toast bread?

You've almost done an argument from ignorance/personal incredulity in that you're saying "I don't know that, therefore it is this and not that."

"Real life applications and examples, however - that is something real and tangible, that one must accomodate."

I am pretty sure now that you are a philosophy troll!! !

Too obvious.



SporadSpontan
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01 Jan 2010, 10:00 pm

Who?.................. Me - I could change my beliefs.
What?................. Another belief, or perhaps a realisation.
Only pseudo-truths are subjective. IMO there has to be an actual truth that comes down to the same thing for everyone.
Why?.................. If something else makes more sense - so logic. And if I see more potential for growth in another belief.


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Magnus
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02 Jan 2010, 12:24 am

SporadSpontan wrote:
Who?.................. Me - I could change my beliefs.
What?................. Another belief, or perhaps a realisation.
Only pseudo-truths are subjective. IMO there has to be an actual truth that comes down to the same thing for everyone.
Why?.................. If something else makes more sense - so logic. And if I see more potential for growth in another belief.


It sounds like you are able to change your beliefs quite easily. Do you often change your mind about things? I think that is a good trait, to be flexible and open minded. It's easier said than done though.

I've read that successful people make decisions and seldom change their mind, while unsuccessful people change their mind often and are slow to make decisions. I guess it depends on your idea of success.


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Magnus
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02 Jan 2010, 12:27 am

Gromit wrote:
Magnus wrote:
What could change that? Logic?
Sure.

Magnus wrote:
no...if that were the case we'd all think the same way...
Only if all our reasoning were deductive and we all agreed on the premises. Much of our reasoning is inductive and prior beliefs make a difference to that.

Magnus wrote:
Personal experience?
Depends on how relevant I think my previous experience is.

Magnus wrote:
Love? That will warp your mind....
If you know it will all end in tears, don't let it happen.

Magnus wrote:
Truth?
If that doesn't, nothing can. The problem lies in what you accept as definitely or probably true.

Magnus wrote:
It's all subjective.

Image

Magnus wrote:
Jessica Alba?
That goes back to the title, who could change my beliefs. Anyone arguing a topic that interests me enough to listen, starts with premises I am willing to accept (if I don't know the relevant facts or if I am presented with data in conflict with what I think is true, that will depend on how honest and well informed I think that person is) and gives me a well reasoned argument. Is Jessica Alba exceptional regarding these criteria?


Nice cartoon.


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Tim_Tex
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02 Jan 2010, 1:06 am

Anyone holding a gun to my head.


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