judaism

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anyone here jewish?

Considering the latest Israeli laws, who can tell?

just you wish

Anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish, according to Rabbinic Law.

The laws pertaining to conversions are fairly well screwed up in Israel because the Orthodox party has a disproportionate amount of power in determining conversion laws. That is what happens in a legislative body that is divided into a half dozen or more political parties.

I stopped contributing to Israel a ways back when the government of Israel discriminated against Conservative and Reform Jews and their congregations. Only the Orthodox receive money from the State. This lack of separation of State and Religion has always annoyed me and the outright discrimination has led me to contribute no more money to Israel. I wish them luck with their fight against Muslim killers, but they will have to do it without my help.

ruveyn

I am sure they are devastated.

If enough Jews withhold their money, they will feel the pinch. Israel's survival depends on charitable contributions.

ruveyn

The diaspora still seems very supportive of the country. And although Netanyahu regularly thumbs his nose at Obama, Obama still takes it, as we used to say in the army in WWII, with a sh it eating grin.

A group of people who took land on their holy land and founded a country based solely on their religion have trouble separating state and religion? A shocking turn of events, indeed!!

Agreed. Also, I don't personally find theocracies to be such a bad idea--a country where everyone is like-minded, similar/same beliefs, common goals. What I DO have a problem with are theocracies that carry out their foreign policies in such a way that all other countries would be just like them. Israel doesn't CARE whether the rest of the world is just like them. Their neighbors don't appear to be quite that sympathetic, and if I ever lost my mind and converted to Islam, I'd know exactly where to go.

As it is, I'm perfectly comfortable in a non-theocratic republic that allows me the freedom to make up my own mind and worship as I wish.

I'm not rabbinically Jewish (Jewish father, Catholic mother), but I choose to live as a Jew (incl. not believing in the divinity of Jesus)...I hope to rectify the halacha problem by formally converting in a few years (kinda hard to convert when going to college in a small town in Arkansas w/o a rabbi).

That will probably have an effect opposite to what you want. When the Israelis feel squeezed, the more hawkish (and religious) right gains support. As you mentioned earlier, in the multi-party Israeli parliamentary system, smaller, more ideological parties are often the kingmakers when forming a coalition for a new government, which lets them extract concessions from the leading party that they would not get otherwise. This will tend to amplify the effect of an ideological drift to the left or right; when a right-wing party gains more seats as the electorate shifts slightly right, they become a much more attractive (and thus powerful) coalition partner. Thus, the harder Israel is squeezed, the farther right it goes, and the more it resists.

I think a better approach to ending the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians would be to try to bolster the Israeli left. By strengthening the more dovish left, you could potentially reduce the leverage of the religious parties that support settlement construction (and are likely the only reason the settlements are still around at all) and the hawkish parties that advocate aggressive military responses to Palestinian actions, or even cut them out of the coalition entirely. This would create an Israeli government that is more willing to compromise in the pursuit of peace. To do this, it may require walking back at lot of the rhetoric about the conflict, particularly things that the Israeli right can come out with evidence to dispute or that intersect with a perceived or actual defense issue. Unfortunately, it's a tough sell when dealing with an emotionally charged issue such as this.

Theocracies are always a bad idea. Even when founded on the noblest of principles like those espoused by Herzl.

The only problem with the "Let's support the Israeli left" idea is that the reality of Israeli politics is that the religious parties have enough voter support that leaving them out of a coalition government is virtually impossible, especially with Shas and increasingly Yisrael Beiteinu. If you want more leftist parties in the coalition, then the Labor Party has to get its crap together to win the undecided voters from Likud (and some from Kadima).

It is a bit trite to describe Israel as a theocracy.

While the raison d'être of Israel is to provide a Jewish homeland, it is not a state administered by theologians. It is, rather, a Parliamentary democracy into which religious parties have exercised a significant level of political power.

Israeli Arabs have their own political parties, vote, serve in the Knesset, on the Bench, in the public service and in the military. Some of this participation may well be tokenism, but it exists. Contrast this with a true theocracy (say, Vatican City or, stretching a point, Saudi Arabia) and the civil status of religious minorities has a very different character.

I think it's a matter of semantics. What Israel actually is isn't accurately represented by the ideas of a free democracy or the ideas of a straight up theocracy. Many of the prejudices against others in the country are fed by a sense of theocracy and religious supremacy and are either directly supported by government or are indirectly supported through government turning a blind eye to such matters. I think the theocratic accusation is more in the sense of that one's view of their religion as supreme and as the defining ownership of the land informs the other aspects of behavior within government and within social aspects of the country.

imbatshitcrazy asked: anyone here jewish? - Well, as I read the Bible (Old and New Testaments) it's a theological and economic (think collection plate money) battle between traditional Judaism vs reformed, liberal Judaism as reformed by a liberal theologian known as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was a Jew. So, being a Christian (aka a believer in a Jew named Jesus Christ who was a member of Judaism), I suppose I could call myself Jewish - however of the liberal kind. The New Testament says an explanation sign was publicly posted above the head of Jesus which read: Unelected Liberal President of Traditional Judaism - popular participant, Palm Sunday Ticker Tape Parade - INRI - or something of that nature. Jesus Christ also liberalized/created a variation of the religious celebration of the Passover dinner using bread and wine (a memorial remembrance ceremony service marking the death of Jesus Christ - liberal Jewish theologian). I really think that all Christians are essentially Jews/members of Judaism but of the liberal, reformed kind. Jesus Christ/Christianity would be nothing without Judaism. Jesus Christ essentially is, was, and forever will be a member of Judaism/a Jew. That's how I understand it today. Additional resource: Monty Python series of liberal religious insights.