Do you believe in Karma?

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Karma can be defined as actual cause and effect, and that how we treat others will reflect on we think of ourselves which will ultimately lead to an outcome in our lives. The part I do understand about karma is the cause and effect from which or behaviors manifest our perception of reality, but what I don’t understand is how it is possible for our perception on reality, lets say a destructive one, lead to self destructive outcomes in our lives. Just because we have a destructive perception on life doesn’t mean that our conscience will lead us to destruction. The only way that would be possible is that if there are imposed consequences for our perceptions of reality and their reflective behaviors. Thus a an imposition must have an imposer or god. In a way, karma is similar to the notion that we will be punished or rewarded in heaven our hell after we perish depending on our decisions now hear on earth, but karma instead either gives us little piece of heaven or hell while we are still alive on this planet. Good things happen to bad people, but they also happen to good people. Also, good and bad things happen to both good and bad people. In order to answer such a question another must first be asked: Do you believe in free will? The reason why this question needs to be asked first is because one of the implications discerned from the original question "Do you believe in Karma" is that if you do believe in karma, then how would it be possible to at the same time believe in free will? The answer is that it is not possible if you think logically. The reason is that karma negates free will. So logically, karma can only be understood as the enforcement of the consequences of our actions (actions which reflect our perceptions of reality) which are enforced by an enforcer (god) from outside the realm of our existence. If this is true then this would mean our own actions or causes don't lead to our own effects or consequences, and free will goes right out the door.

Furthermore, cause and effect leaves no room for karma; our actions (causes) are actually effects caused by previous effects, and from which those effects will cause subsequent effects. The only way to alter the pattern of cause and effect would be to alter the conscience of a decision making being which is self aware (humans). What this would imply is that the notion of karma is actually a paradox because the only way to alter or influence a conscience would be to physically alter the brain, and the only ways to achieve this is through drugs which will ultimately changes our thoughts and alters perspective on reality and make us delusional because we can't see reality for what it truly is. But, we can also change our thoughts by making a conscious decision to do so, which would actually be employing freewill. Therefore, karma is actually a delusion created by our own thoughts through our own free will which alters our conscience because we can't see reality for what it actually is; a reality which obeys the laws of physics more specifically cause and effect; karma is actually the effect of its own cause; a paradox. Basically, karma is only true because we decide to make it true, but we can also decide to not believe in it, and in that case it actually doesn't exist because it has no effect on our conscience. Ultimately, to believe in free will is to not believe in karma, and to believe in karma is to not leave any room for our own free will.

Personally, I believe in free will. I think we should take responsibility for our own decisions, and by we I mean as individuals and the whole of mankind. Obviously, we haven't yet because there are those who still believe in something as ridiculous as karma. Karma is nothing more that a selective observation and negation of others which gives the observer a lopsided perspective on reality. Those who believe karma are oblivious to the fact that it's just as likely that good things will happen to good people as bad things will happen to bad people if it is taken from the perspective of the individual in which that something happened to, assuming the individual doesn't use selective observation and takes into account not only just the good things or the bad things that have happened to them, but also all the good or bad decisions they've made in their lives. Odds are they'll find an unbalanced occurrence of the positive and negatives of cause sand effects in they're lives, and realize that karma only exists because they choose to fit karma into a box which they've created themselves in order to validate its existence within their lives. In short, they choose to only recall the bad things they've done when something bad happens to them, and choose to only to recall the good things they've done when something good happens to them. Their conscience will not let them see outside the box in which karma exists in their minds depending on the given circumstance.

Everything which exits in nature besides us is not self aware, we are the only sentient beings. So nature is not aware of the fact that we are self ware. If nature isn’t ware of our awareness then how could it possibly care what decisions we make. The natural occurrence of cause and effect doesn’t take into account that we are aware of its existence because it isn’t even aware that it or anything else in nature actually exists; cause and effect happens regardless of our “feelings” towards it. We interpret the nature of cause and effects through the filtering of our nervous system or our sensory perception which is unique only to us in nature. Nature isn’t good or bad, but simply obeys the laws of physics (cause and effect), and because we are a part of nature we are included in its process of cause and effect. This only holds true of course with the exclusion “divine intervention” from a greater power (god) which could alter the course cause and effect within nature, in other words karma. Also, to prove the validity karma's claim, we would have to take into account for every individual’s ratio of good and bad decisions in their lives to all the good and bad experiences in their lives. They're maybe a possibility that if we take into account every consequence of every decision made by of all mankind from the beginning of our time as self aware conscious beings, that we'd actually be able to prove karma's existence. But, this is only from a holistic perspective of all mankind, and odds are that for the individual life isn't fair; some people deserve what they get and some do not.

Although in my opinion, karma isn't real, it does have one particular (maybe two) benefits, in that it gives those who actually have a conscience something: conditioning. If someone who believes in karma decides at a moment to do something bad, and then later experiences something bad which happens to them, they will be reminded of all the bad things they've done and feel enormous guilt; this prevents future bad decisions because the fear of experiencing enormous guilt again, and that the enforcer of karma (god perhaps) disapproves, which also instills the fear of a greater power who decides the our rewards or punishments. This is also the same for the opposite; those who do good things we'll feel reassured that the greater power which controls karma approves of their decisions, and they will feel safe from bad experiences within the future and be rewarded for good deeds. The problem with this that this doesn't leave any room for goodwill. Shouldn't we have goodwill, rather then doing good out of fear of karma? Shouldn't we let our own consciences' make our decisions rather then letting some arbitrary belief like karma control them? I believe so.

Last edited by rojasje87 on 29 Aug 2010, 4:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Sorry, but your understanding of the Buddhist concept of karma is completely inaccurate, so you're arguing with a mistaken notion, rather than with what Buddhists really believe.

In Buddhism, karma means cause and effect. It's not an extra tax on bad behavior imposed by a "god." (Most Buddhists don't believe in gods in that way).

The Buddhist conception of karma is pretty simple, really. If you act in nasty and destructive ways, you'll have a nastier and more destroyed life. If you're mean, people will be mean back, even if you don't always recognize it at the time; if you lie and steal, you'll live in a constant state of fear of being caught. If you think less of other people, you'll think less of yourself. If you exploit other people, you'll have a harder time having respect for yourself.

It's not a big mystery -- very sensible really.

i do not believe in karma in the way that if i do something bad, then something bad will happen to me as a result.
but if i do something bad, then i can not appeal to any higher authority to mediate my bad luck that i feel i do not deserve.

example:
if i saw an elderly person in an electric wheelchair drop their wallet on the ground as they proceeded on their way, then if i picked it up and kept the money inside it, and i was diagnosed with cancer the next day, i would feel that i could not appeal to god to save me from the worst case scenario because i would feel that i am not that valuable a person to attract any favors.

i am not religious, but there is a sense of a place on high that i could wonder that loves me and may help me that i would believe i would destroy if i stole the pension of an invalid out of a dropped wallet.

What I was actually implying was not that the belief of karma is that there is god who imposes the appropriate consequences for our actions, but instead that without the belief in god how could one possibly believe in karma. Karma can be defined as actual cause and effect, and that how we treat others will reflect on we think of ourselves which will ultimately lead to an outcome in our lives. The part I do understand about karma is the cause and effect from which or behaviors manifest our perception of reality, but what I don’t understand is how it is possible for our perception on reality, lets say a destructive one, lead to self destructive outcomes in our lives. Just because we have a destructive perception on life doesn’t mean that our conscience will lead us to destruction. The only way that would be possible is that if there are imposed consequences for our perceptions of reality and their reflective behaviors. Thus a an imposition must have an imposer or god. Also, the nature of cause and effect does not leave room karma because nature isn’t going to select certain consequences in particular to fit our appropriation of cause and effect or karma; science simply obeys that laws of physics. Nature can’t even do this even if it wanted because it is without awareness, and without that how could it possibly take us into consideration. Karma is simply a false interpretation of cause and effect, an interpretation which refuses the natures laws physics or cause and effect in particular. We have the ability to create our own perception on reality through free will and we may get what deserve or not which does not necessarily depend on our actions or their intentions. I can give numerous example of this but I think most us are aware of them and can think of many for ourselves.

Anyways, thanks stevesilberman for bringing that up, I should have been more clear on what I was implying. I edited my original posting to explain this better.

Isn't karma in buddhism a bit more than that? such as your actions pay in the next life? (ie if terrible things happen to you, it's because you did something terrible in your previous life.)

It depends on if you're a Buddhist who believes in reincarnation or not. Most Tibetan Buddhists do; most American students of Zen, vipassana, and other schools don't think about it.

I'm proactive, I believe in making sure karma happens.

New-agers talk about this as well so I guess the correct understanding of it will verify by theory and sect.

My own take - if Karma does exist, I don't believe that there is anything that we do in this life that can be off-track. I literally don't believe we have enough degrees of freedom to do so. If existence happened over many lives as a learning experience then Karma would be nothing more than swinging back and forth on the pendulum between different personality types, different traits, either based on what you needed to learn or based on the depth of your fluxuations across the board. In that case though it much less good or evil action being rewarded or punished but rather more like your soul is an atom bouncing from wall to wall like a bullet and each life is something like a ricochet point, there's no real accounting of good and evil that regard because where you hit is where you hit. A lot of new-agers will suggest that we plot, map, or at least choose our lives; that's possible as well though I think that would speak far more to the notion that life is nothing more than a learning experience - no one would willing choose a vessel that would land them in hell if that was something to be worried about.

Many people believe that you must suffer or make amends for all the bad things you have done as if someone was keeping score in some celestial record book.

I don't think so. Karma is cause and effect, yes.

If I have anger management problems, go to rough bars, get drunk and get into fights then I am surely bringing bad things upon myself.

But if I "see the light", "get religion", "become enlightened" and stop doing destructive things then my problems should stop.

Some would say that if I have bashed 50 people then I have to take 50 beatings to be even.
I think that is just silly.

Generally, that seems how it works, people themselves make "karma" happen, as well as there are some who get away with their deeds, I suppose the idea of an after-life or next life is there to "complete" the karma process.

Insofar as karma is a conservation principle or an underlying symmetry in existence I can accept the possibility that it exists.

ruveyhn

Right, but what's interesting about the non-afterlife version of karma is that it challenges the notion that anyone "gets away" with anything, even if they seem to, from the outside, at the time. The non-afterlife version of karma suggests that doing unkind or evil deeds makes your life more miserable, even if you seem to be making money and so on.

I'd still say that its like water turn a brief whirlpool or eddie in a creek, watching a leaf blow across the ground, etc. Its watching us bounce around like molecules and watch our environments, genetics, personalities, and the people in our lives influence us, how they influence us, etc. Not to say that nonrecognition of good or evil erases any physical accountability for good or evil - just that the reprocussions and reprisals are just as automated, just as certain, and everything is meant to happen simply because it can't happen any other way than it does. Good is the general forward trend as it seems to be a lower energy level, more organized and generally far more efficient - similar to time and growth of the universe being a process of thermodynamic relaxation.

I do believe in Karma. Not just in a spiritual way, but from a practical view point too. If you don't believe in karma you might as well not believe in consequences for anything you do, which is silly in my opinion. Every human, animal, organization, and country has been effected by the consequences of their deeds and how those things turn out is a sure example of the choices they've made in their past. Of course I believe the rules for karma are something we'll never know for sure. All we can do is try to do what we think is good and hope for the best.

yes, it just happend to my mother. her house got completley destroyed in a flood awile back

I'm Christian, but I believe in karma. There are always consequences of actions, and I believe that somehow, when we do good or bad, we are repaid or punished.
Happens ALL the time to me/people around me.