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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Nov 2010, 3:00 pm

In this thread, the usage of the words "right to work" are not to refer to the current terminology which refers to an employee's freedom not to be required to join a union. Rather, the usage of the words "right to work" ought to be considered in their more intuitive meaning, namely a right of every citizen to be employed if they so wish. If an amendment to the US constitution were to be made allowing citizens to have a right to be employed, would you be in support of it or oppose it and why?



Vexcalibur
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06 Nov 2010, 3:02 pm

No.

There is no way in hell that would be remotely viable, even in a socialist utopia.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Nov 2010, 3:04 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
No.

There is no way in hell that would be remotely viable, even in a socialist utopia.


Care to give proof of impossibility?



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06 Nov 2010, 3:33 pm

Because it implies there is a Right NOT to work, which allows people to choose to live from the state and be able to stay there immovably for ever because it is their RIGHT.

Also: More people than jobs.

Also a "Right To Work" would be regarded as an inalienable right to a) demand the job of your choice regardless of your capability to perform it and b) make people unsackable because to fire them would be to breach their right to work.

Also it would only end up being abused, just like "Freedom of Speech" gets abused by people who just want to be abusive.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Nov 2010, 3:46 pm

Macbeth wrote:
Because it implies there is a Right NOT to work, which allows people to choose to live from the state and be able to stay there immovably for ever because it is their RIGHT.


There already is the freedom not to work, it just has financial detriments of, say, starving and not being able to afford anything. Having a right to work means having a right to earn ones own living rather than rely upon government handouts or voluntary charities. I'd prefer to work rather than live off of other people.



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06 Nov 2010, 3:48 pm

If you have a right to work then that means other people have an obligation to provide you with work, even if you can produce nothing of value.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Nov 2010, 4:43 pm

mcg wrote:
If you have a right to work then that means other people have an obligation to provide you with work, even if you can produce nothing of value.


Employers ought to have a right to reduce hours until the employees select a job that they are more willing to actually work at or begin to improve to a proper level of competency within the allotted time provided them. As for me, if given work to do I do it orders of magnitude better than my coworkers after I understand my tasks and responsibilities. If hired at just about any job, I will outperform anyone else at anything. There are certainly people who would abuse any right and any system, but everyone in general should not be punished for the faults of the few.



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06 Nov 2010, 5:05 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
mcg wrote:
If you have a right to work then that means other people have an obligation to provide you with work, even if you can produce nothing of value.


Employers ought to have a right to reduce hours until the employees select a job that they are more willing to actually work at or begin to improve to a proper level of competency within the allotted time provided them. As for me, if given work to do I do it orders of magnitude better than my coworkers after I understand my tasks and responsibilities. If hired at just about any job, I will outperform anyone else at anything. There are certainly people who would abuse any right and any system, but everyone in general should not be punished for the faults of the few.


Ever wondered if maybe your staggering arrogance might be hurting your employment options a little? Do you say that sort of thing in interviews, because I am certain many employers would balk at such a statement. You should at least quantify it. You don't know you can outperform anyone at anything in almost any job. At best you know that you have outperformed some people at the jobs you have held so far.


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06 Nov 2010, 5:17 pm

Macbeth wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
mcg wrote:
If you have a right to work then that means other people have an obligation to provide you with work, even if you can produce nothing of value.


Employers ought to have a right to reduce hours until the employees select a job that they are more willing to actually work at or begin to improve to a proper level of competency within the allotted time provided them. As for me, if given work to do I do it orders of magnitude better than my coworkers after I understand my tasks and responsibilities. If hired at just about any job, I will outperform anyone else at anything. There are certainly people who would abuse any right and any system, but everyone in general should not be punished for the faults of the few.


Ever wondered if maybe your staggering arrogance might be hurting your employment options a little? Do you say that sort of thing in interviews, because I am certain many employers would balk at such a statement. You should at least quantify it. You don't know you can outperform anyone at anything in almost any job. At best you know that you have outperformed some people at the jobs you have held so far.


I enumerate situations in which I have outperformed my coworkers and do not make such a statement outright. Thanks for giving advice I already knew.



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06 Nov 2010, 5:21 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
mcg wrote:
If you have a right to work then that means other people have an obligation to provide you with work, even if you can produce nothing of value.


Employers ought to have a right to reduce hours until the employees select a job that they are more willing to actually work at or begin to improve to a proper level of competency within the allotted time provided them. As for me, if given work to do I do it orders of magnitude better than my coworkers after I understand my tasks and responsibilities. If hired at just about any job, I will outperform anyone else at anything. There are certainly people who would abuse any right and any system, but everyone in general should not be punished for the faults of the few.


Ever wondered if maybe your staggering arrogance might be hurting your employment options a little? Do you say that sort of thing in interviews, because I am certain many employers would balk at such a statement. You should at least quantify it. You don't know you can outperform anyone at anything in almost any job. At best you know that you have outperformed some people at the jobs you have held so far.


I enumerate situations in which I have outperformed my coworkers and do not make such a statement outright. Thanks for giving advice I already knew.


Maybe its the way you "enumerate" then. Do you perhaps "enumerate" at your co-workers whilst in these jobs as well? Or at your superiors?


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06 Nov 2010, 5:24 pm

You cannot have a "right to work" in the sense you describe, simply because the economy does not work that way. At any given time, a certain number of people will be unemployed. Declaring that everyone has the right to a job means offering a guarantee that is impossible to deliver on.


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06 Nov 2010, 5:28 pm

Orwell wrote:
You cannot have a "right to work" in the sense you describe, simply because the economy does not work that way. At any given time, a certain number of people will be unemployed. Declaring that everyone has the right to a job means offering a guarantee that is impossible to deliver on.


I'd agree, but I would note that policies like (until the 2000s Depression hit) high interest rates and high dollar has depressed US employment rates.


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06 Nov 2010, 5:42 pm

No - at least not if you assume that 'being paid' goes along with 'working.'



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06 Nov 2010, 5:47 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Orwell wrote:
You cannot have a "right to work" in the sense you describe, simply because the economy does not work that way. At any given time, a certain number of people will be unemployed. Declaring that everyone has the right to a job means offering a guarantee that is impossible to deliver on.


I'd agree, but I would note that policies like (until the 2000s Depression hit) high interest rates and high dollar has depressed US employment rates.

Perhaps. If we assume that the Phillips Curve is valid, then the policymakers had to weigh the relative costs of unemployment against inflation. And China's dishonest monetary policies have kept the dollar artificially high in relative terms for years.


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06 Nov 2010, 6:40 pm

To the best of my experience, the only thing right to work has meant to my employment is that employers can let you go without reason and without notice. The only benefit is that you can also leave without notice but that really isn't much of a benefit.


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06 Nov 2010, 7:04 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
In this thread, the usage of the words "right to work" are not to refer to the current terminology which refers to an employee's freedom not to be required to join a union. Rather, the usage of the words "right to work" ought to be considered in their more intuitive meaning, namely a right of every citizen to be employed if they so wish. If an amendment to the US constitution were to be made allowing citizens to have a right to be employed, would you be in support of it or oppose it and why?


Word are important, you chose your words and you already know why. Your title is right to work, but what you want is right to be employed. You changed the word on purpose to mislead people with the "right to work" when it's not you you want.

And that's because you already have the right to work. You can go do (almost) whatever you want. Go work, build something, and sell it. Go invent something new and sell the idea. Program some software, and sell it. Buy other peoples trash and sell it on ebay. Your opportunities are almost endless, but you have to do it yourself.

You have no right to employment, because employers are people. To force someone to employ you overrides their freedom. You have no more right to force someone to employ you than I have to walk into your house and demand you employ me.