Page 1 of 3 [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,903

01 May 2011, 11:46 pm

There are so many passages in the Torah were God seems to refer to itself in the plural form. Some say this was merely honorific, but it seems a case can be made that the Ancient Hebrews started out Polytheist and gradually developed into monotheists. It certainly complicates any Bible reading exercise.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7RF_GoeOTg[/youtube]


_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/


MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 May 2011, 12:05 am

It doesn't seem that way to me. The whole point of the Scriptures is to stress the uniqueness of Yahweh as the one and only true God.

Whether the majority of the ancient Hebrews themselves were polytheists or not, that's a different story.



John_Browning
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,456
Location: The shooting range

02 May 2011, 12:17 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
There are so many passages in the Torah were God seems to refer to itself in the plural form. Some say this was merely honorific, but it seems a case can be made that the Ancient Hebrews started out Polytheist and gradually developed into monotheists. It certainly complicates any Bible reading exercise.

Christians see it as an early reference to the Trinity, and an orthodox rabbis, who don't believe in the Trinity, would likely argue emphatically that the original meaning and their current interpretation are one and the same and never changed. From a christian point of view that would also be true.


_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown

"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud


Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,903

02 May 2011, 12:19 am

MCalavera wrote:
It doesn't seem that way to me. The whole point of the Scriptures is to stress the uniqueness of Yahweh as the one and only true God.

Whether the majority of the ancient Hebrews themselves were polytheists or not, that's a different story.


"The Scriptures" are a composite work and some break rather markedly with this theme. Psalms 82, for instance, seems markedly Henotheistic (there are many gods, but what really powerful God that is supreme over them all).


Quote:
Psalm 82

1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV


_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/


MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 May 2011, 12:22 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
It doesn't seem that way to me. The whole point of the Scriptures is to stress the uniqueness of Yahweh as the one and only true God.

Whether the majority of the ancient Hebrews themselves were polytheists or not, that's a different story.


"The Scriptures" are a composite work and some break rather markedly with this theme. Psalms 82, for instance, seems markedly Henotheistic (there are many gods, but what really powerful God that is supreme over them all).


Quote:
Psalm 82

1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV


It's a Psalm. It's not saying that human judges are literally gods.



The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,045
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

02 May 2011, 3:25 am

This is nothing new nor surprising. The proto-Israelites were southern Canaanites (more specifically, southern Phoenicians), the distinction between the 2 groups was just political.

For instance, "Ba'al" was a title for major gods used by Phoenicians, while it was viewed as "False god" or even "the lesser god" by Jews , and as demon by Christian literature.

The truth is, The Israelites were nothing more than a Canaanite cult.



TeaEarlGreyHot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 28,982
Location: California

02 May 2011, 3:32 am

Cool. I'm aware of this. Each branch that uses the OT has a different explanation for it. I was raised Mormon, and thus taught one simple phrase... "As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become."

Logically, this means there are many gods out there and many more to come. Provided, of course, enough make it to the highest level of heaven.


_________________
Still looking for that blue jean baby queen, prettiest girl I've ever seen.


MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

02 May 2011, 4:08 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
This is nothing new nor surprising. The proto-Israelites were southern Canaanites (more specifically, southern Phoenicians), the distinction between the 2 groups was just political.

For instance, "Ba'al" was a title for major gods used by Phoenicians, while it was viewed as "False god" or even "the lesser god" by Jews , and as demon by Christian literature.

The truth is, The Israelites were nothing more than a Canaanite cult.


The key word is "false". The believers in the Scriptures were mainly monotheists believing that the gods like Baal and Molech were false gods that can't speak, can't hear, can't feed, can't do miracles, and so on. The writers went out of their way to make this point clear. That there was no real god but one God (which they referred to as Yahweh).

This is not to say that there weren't Israelites who were polytheists and I don't disagree that the Jews were basically a Canaanite cult. Because, honestly ... they probably were ... just that they switched from polytheist belief to monotheist.

It's like how Islam was originally like some sort of Christian cult but switched from Trinitarianism to strict Unitarian Monotheism.



The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,045
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

02 May 2011, 7:46 am

MCalavera wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
This is nothing new nor surprising. The proto-Israelites were southern Canaanites (more specifically, southern Phoenicians), the distinction between the 2 groups was just political.

For instance, "Ba'al" was a title for major gods used by Phoenicians, while it was viewed as "False god" or even "the lesser god" by Jews , and as demon by Christian literature.

The truth is, The Israelites were nothing more than a Canaanite cult.


The key word is "false". The believers in the Scriptures were mainly monotheists believing that the gods like Baal and Molech were false gods that can't speak, can't hear, can't feed, can't do miracles, and so on. The writers went out of their way to make this point clear. That there was no real god but one God (which they referred to as Yahweh).

This is not to say that there weren't Israelites who were polytheists and I don't disagree that the Jews were basically a Canaanite cult. Because, honestly ... they probably were ... just that they switched from polytheist belief to monotheist.

It's like how Islam was originally like some sort of Christian cult but switched from Trinitarianism to strict Unitarian Monotheism.


Hmm, nice comparison, however I think Islam was more of an hybrid between Judaism ,Christianity and an old Arabian religions, the followers of these Arab ancient religions were called Ummiyeen by the Christians and Jews in Arabia.

Prophet Muhammad himself was called Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullāh, in arabic the word Abdullah is written as عبدالله ( the word Allah as الله) which means "The slave of Allah", so go figure, as you can see the word Allah was not originated from the Qur'an.

Allah was the chief of gods in ancient religion of Arabia and his three daughters are called al-ʻUzzá, Manāt and al-Lāt , these three goddesses are mentioned in the Qu'ran (google the "Satanic verses").

However, many scholars claim that Waraqah ibn Nawfal taught Muhammad a lot about Christianity, so the Judaism/Christianity elements in the Qur'an are probably brought from Waraqah.

The transition from polytheism to monotheism isn't uncommon in human history, even the ancient Egyptians did it.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 02 May 2011, 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

02 May 2011, 7:47 am

It is fairly clear that the Hebrews were in constant contact with polytheism, and tat there was a constAnt tension. Besides frequent work to root out hill shrines and such, there was the Jewish colony in Egypt [operating for many purposes an Achaemenid Aramnaic very close to the Aramaic sections of the OT] which not only illegally had their own temple but also, if I remember right, brought in a few of the local deities.

Several passages particularly in the psalms echo neatly word for word [original liturgical poetry is hard, and good liturgical poetry easier to adapt that eradicate] texts in Ugaritic, a northern Canaanite lingo of a polytheistic somewhat earlier culture.

Clearly when THE God is in dialogue with the gods, we do not have to assume polytheism, awareness of Hebraism as SPECIAL will handle it.

For the linguist [forget theology], the issue is that possibly honorific plurality is

a. reserved for divine entities [not the king, not my father]

b. extended to officially false divine entities [Baalim, Ashtaroth]

c. not licensed for ALL divine entities [Rimmon, Moloch]

d. problematically used in the unique and possibly not originally Hebraic Book of Job with Behemoth - literally "critters"].

It is possible to devise several reasonable scenarios which will fit the data. Won't bother, you can figure them so good as me. It is probably NOT possible to determine a clearly best-fit scenario - and if we did history and Comparative Linguyistics say the best fit could still be way off the truth.



JakobVirgil
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,744
Location: yes

02 May 2011, 8:25 am

Philologos wrote:
It is fairly clear that the Hebrews were in constant contact with polytheism, and tat there was a constAnt tension. Besides frequent work to root out hill shrines and such, there was the Jewish colony in Egypt [operating for many purposes an Achaemenid Aramnaic very close to the Aramaic sections of the OT] which not only illegally had their own temple but also, if I remember right, brought in a few of the local deities.

Several passages particularly in the psalms echo neatly word for word [original liturgical poetry is hard, and good liturgical poetry easier to adapt that eradicate] texts in Ugaritic, a northern Canaanite lingo of a polytheistic somewhat earlier culture.

Clearly when THE God is in dialogue with the gods, we do not have to assume polytheism, awareness of Hebraism as SPECIAL will handle it.

For the linguist [forget theology], the issue is that possibly honorific plurality is

a. reserved for divine entities [not the king, not my father]

b. extended to officially false divine entities [Baalim, Ashtaroth]

c. not licensed for ALL divine entities [Rimmon, Moloch]

d. problematically used in the unique and possibly not originally Hebraic Book of Job with Behemoth - literally "critters"].

It is possible to devise several reasonable scenarios which will fit the data. Won't bother, you can figure them so good as me. It is probably NOT possible to determine a clearly best-fit scenario - and if we did history and Comparative Linguyistics say the best fit could still be way off the truth.


don't forget Adam.


_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/


Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

02 May 2011, 8:29 am

Hoookay....

You could clarify.

I confess I do not at this writing see how Adam as name or Adam as string of reported incidents directly affect the choice of scenarios accounting for Hebrew divine ebntity pluralization.



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

02 May 2011, 8:31 am

I get a shock every time I look at that do. Literally a shock of hair?



ThatRedHairedGrrl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2008
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 912
Location: Walking through a shopping mall listening to Half Japanese on headphones

02 May 2011, 10:11 am

Yes, it's highly likely that there was a slow development from polytheism, through monolatrism (belief that while there are other gods, only one of them is worthy of worship), to true monotheism. Even long after the Jews had taken the Shema as their basic declaration of faith, there were hints at a primordial multiplicity of gods, a Council of Souls, and the presence of Wisdom, the Shekhinah and the Torah itself as coeval figures with God - there are various references to them in the Talmudic writings that suggest that even if power was 'officially' vested in one place, it wasn't always seen as having been that way.

I'm currently reading a book called 'Tree of Souls' by Howard Schwartz - it's a compendium of Jewish mythology, all the different stories told in their different versions, with references to the original texts. It's fascinating. For me, one of the key points of Judaism is that at least over the years, Jewish scholars have discussed among themselves various possible explanations for the discrepancies in their scriptures, whereas Christians, when faced with contradictions in the Old Testament (and between the Old and the New) tend to either ignore them or say they just need to be accepted by faith. Whatever the theological merits of the two methods, at least the Jewish method has come up with some interesting stories.


_________________
"Grunge? Isn't that some gross shade of greenish orange?"


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

02 May 2011, 11:05 am

The Jews (or Israelites) did not become fully monotheistic until during the Babylonian Exile.

ruveyn



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

02 May 2011, 11:42 am

And almost certainly not as a single ynit, given the Elephantine colony and some of the data on the early Samaritans.