Is it morally wrong to not support the troops?

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well?
Yes, it's ungrateful and cowardly. Shame! 36%  36%  [ 8 ]
No, they are contributing to war. We shouldn't support them. 64%  64%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 22

donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 6:34 pm

Back in the 60s and 70s, being against the war meant you were against the troops as well. While i condemn spitting in their faces, insulting them, etc, I can't say i support the troops. I don't hate them or anything, most of them are just trying to get into college or believe they are fighting for the greater good, but the truth is they're not.

IMO if you support the troops to some extent you must support the war. Saying you support them and idolize them but then saying you are against the war makes no sense. I think it's just become politically incorrect to say you're anti-military these days. People see it as insulting to the troop's families or whatever. Frankly i think it's driven mostly by successful Reagan-era hawkish propaganda.

I support the troops as far as not wanting them to die in pointless wars, but that's where my support ends basically.

"What if there was a war and nobody showed up?"



ruveyn
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03 Jun 2011, 6:36 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Back in the 60s and 70s, being against the war meant you were against the troops as well. While i condemn spitting in their faces, insulting them, etc, I can't say i support the troops. I don't hate them or anything, most of them are just trying to get into college or believe they are fighting for the greater good, but the truth is they're not.

IMO if you support the troops to some extent you must support the war. Saying you support them and idolize them but then saying you are against the war makes no sense. I think it's just become politically incorrect to say you're anti-military these days. People see it as insulting to the troop's families or whatever. Frankly i think it's driven mostly by successful Reagan-era hawkish propaganda.

I support the troops as far as not wanting them to die in pointless wars, but that's where my support ends basically.

"What if there was a war and nobody showed up?"


And what if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the U.S. did nothing? The West Coast would be under Japanese control.

Nobody showing up was Neville Chamberlain's idea. That did not stop Germany from looting a raping Europe.

ruveyn



donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 6:40 pm

ruveyn wrote:

And what if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the U.S. did nothing? The West Coast would be under Japanese control.

Nobody showing up was Neville Chamberlain's idea. That did not stop Germany from looting a raping Europe.

ruveyn


The official history of WW2 is written by the Allied standpoint. Had people practiced Pacifism prior to WW2, none of that would have ever happened. Do you really think the Japanese and Germans are inherently more evil than Americans and British people?



ruveyn
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03 Jun 2011, 6:43 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

And what if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the U.S. did nothing? The West Coast would be under Japanese control.

Nobody showing up was Neville Chamberlain's idea. That did not stop Germany from looting a raping Europe.

ruveyn


The official history of WW2 is written by the Allied standpoint. Had people practiced Pacifism prior to WW2, none of that would have ever happened. Do you really think the Japanese and Germans are inherently more evil than Americans and British people?


Right. History is all made up. Dream on. Even the Germans finally admitted how bad the Nazis were. It does not matter whether the Germans are more warlike or not. The fact is they went along with the Nazis. Hell, they even voted Hitler into their Parliament. Read -Hitler's Willing Executioners- by Goldhagen.

ruveyn



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03 Jun 2011, 6:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Right. History is all made up. Dream on. Even the Germans finally admitted how bad the Nazis were. It does not matter whether the Germans are more warlike or not. The fact is they went along with the Nazis. Hell, they even voted Hitler into their Parliament. Read -Hitler's Willing Executioners- by Goldhagen.

ruveyn


It's not all made up, but you never hear much about the Gulag Archipelago, the bombing of Dresden, and all the evil things the Allies did. I'm not saying I would have supported the Axis, but you can't just turn a blind eye to the crimes the Allies did and just say it was all self-defense.



ruveyn
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03 Jun 2011, 6:49 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Right. History is all made up. Dream on. Even the Germans finally admitted how bad the Nazis were. It does not matter whether the Germans are more warlike or not. The fact is they went along with the Nazis. Hell, they even voted Hitler into their Parliament. Read -Hitler's Willing Executioners- by Goldhagen.

ruveyn


It's not all made up, but you never hear much about the Gulag Archipelago, the bombing of Dresden, and all the evil things the Allies did. I'm not saying I would have supported the Axis, but you can't just turn a blind eye to the crimes the Allies did and just say it was all self-defense.


Pay attention! There was a war on. In a war, people kill people and destroy property. It is the nature of war. And it was self defense. Hitler and his Nazi thugs were clearly the aggressors. They invade France, they invaded the low countries, they invaded Poland, they invaded Russia (in spite of a "non-aggression" pact). The Germans killed tens of thousand of people in London and they obliterated Coventry.

You know, if moral equivalence were a fatal disease, you would not be alive to have this conversation.

ruveyn



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03 Jun 2011, 6:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Right. History is all made up. Dream on. Even the Germans finally admitted how bad the Nazis were. It does not matter whether the Germans are more warlike or not. The fact is they went along with the Nazis. Hell, they even voted Hitler into their Parliament. Read -Hitler's Willing Executioners- by Goldhagen.

ruveyn


It's not all made up, but you never hear much about the Gulag Archipelago, the bombing of Dresden, and all the evil things the Allies did. I'm not saying I would have supported the Axis, but you can't just turn a blind eye to the crimes the Allies did and just say it was all self-defense.


Pay attention! There was a war on. In a war, people kill people and destroy property. It is the nature of war. And it was self defense. Hitler and his Nazi thugs were clearly the aggressors. They invade France, they invaded the low countries, they invaded Poland, they invaded Russia (in spite of a "non-aggression" pact). The Germans killed tens of thousand of people in London and they obliterated Coventry.

You know, if moral equivalence were a fatal disease, you would not be alive to have this conversation.

ruveyn

self defense for England but not for us.


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ruveyn
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03 Jun 2011, 6:57 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Right. History is all made up. Dream on. Even the Germans finally admitted how bad the Nazis were. It does not matter whether the Germans are more warlike or not. The fact is they went along with the Nazis. Hell, they even voted Hitler into their Parliament. Read -Hitler's Willing Executioners- by Goldhagen.

ruveyn


It's not all made up, but you never hear much about the Gulag Archipelago, the bombing of Dresden, and all the evil things the Allies did. I'm not saying I would have supported the Axis, but you can't just turn a blind eye to the crimes the Allies did and just say it was all self-defense.


Pay attention! There was a war on. In a war, people kill people and destroy property. It is the nature of war. And it was self defense. Hitler and his Nazi thugs were clearly the aggressors. They invade France, they invaded the low countries, they invaded Poland, they invaded Russia (in spite of a "non-aggression" pact). The Germans killed tens of thousand of people in London and they obliterated Coventry.

You know, if moral equivalence were a fatal disease, you would not be alive to have this conversation.

ruveyn

self defense for England but not for us.


The U.S. would have been next in line after England and Europe. I believe every world the Nazis uttered about : Today Germany Tomorrow the World.

ruveyn



JakobVirgil
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03 Jun 2011, 7:11 pm

ruveyn wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Right. History is all made up. Dream on. Even the Germans finally admitted how bad the Nazis were. It does not matter whether the Germans are more warlike or not. The fact is they went along with the Nazis. Hell, they even voted Hitler into their Parliament. Read -Hitler's Willing Executioners- by Goldhagen.

ruveyn


It's not all made up, but you never hear much about the Gulag Archipelago, the bombing of Dresden, and all the evil things the Allies did. I'm not saying I would have supported the Axis, but you can't just turn a blind eye to the crimes the Allies did and just say it was all self-defense.


Pay attention! There was a war on. In a war, people kill people and destroy property. It is the nature of war. And it was self defense. Hitler and his Nazi thugs were clearly the aggressors. They invade France, they invaded the low countries, they invaded Poland, they invaded Russia (in spite of a "non-aggression" pact). The Germans killed tens of thousand of people in London and they obliterated Coventry.

You know, if moral equivalence were a fatal disease, you would not be alive to have this conversation.

ruveyn

self defense for England but not for us.


The U.S. would have been next in line after England and Europe. I believe every world the Nazis uttered about : Today Germany Tomorrow the World.

ruveyn


I think we tend to overestimate Hitlers competence I think his germany would have imploded before he got to us.


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psychohist
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03 Jun 2011, 7:15 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
The official history of WW2 is written by the Allied standpoint. Had people practiced Pacifism prior to WW2, none of that would have ever happened. Do you really think the Japanese and Germans are inherently more evil than Americans and British people?

The Japanese have and had an insular culture that facilitated their dehumanization of other groups, so in that limited sense yes; they were certainly more likely to engage in military aggression than the typical nation, as well as in more inhumane treatment of prisoners and civilians such as in the death march and at Nanking.

The Germans were in perhaps a more complex situation; they had legitimate complaints about the Ruhr, the Sudetenland, and Danzig. There was, however, no such legitimate reason for the occupation of the rest of the Czech republic, nor for the invasion of Poland.

Great Britain practiced pacifism through the Munich agreement. Japan and Germany resorted to invasion and aggression. There is a difference.



donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 7:22 pm

psychohist wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
The official history of WW2 is written by the Allied standpoint. Had people practiced Pacifism prior to WW2, none of that would have ever happened. Do you really think the Japanese and Germans are inherently more evil than Americans and British people?

The Japanese have and had an insular culture that facilitated their dehumanization of other groups, so in that limited sense yes; they were certainly more likely to engage in military aggression than the typical nation, as well as in more inhumane treatment of prisoners and civilians such as in the death march and at Nanking.

The Germans were in perhaps a more complex situation; they had legitimate complaints about the Ruhr, the Sudetenland, and Danzig. There was, however, no such legitimate reason for the occupation of the rest of the Czech republic, nor for the invasion of Poland.

Great Britain practiced pacifism through the Munich agreement. Japan and Germany resorted to invasion and aggression. There is a difference.


What about the Russians and Americans?



Barrett
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03 Jun 2011, 7:35 pm

Germany did have several legitimate greviances based on revising the Versailles treaty. Most of these were based on Germans stranded in other nations aftter territory adjustments. The problem with Hitler was that he took it too far and didn't know when to stop. He could have probably eventually gotten what he wanted back out of Poland and not found himself fighting England+France if he had shown a bit of patience.

The problems with the Corridor, the Sarr, etc, whre most of the Germans lived might have worked themselves out naturally. Hitler might have been accommodated further if he had backed off a bit, with the spineless nature of the democracies at that time.

Hitler compares poorly in retrospect to the other German unifier, Otto Von Bismarck. Bismarck fought 3 brief wars against Denmark, Austria, and France to unify Germany but he knew when to stop his agression and consolidate what he had. Bismarck only used war as a means to an end. He kept his territorial demands (except for Alscace-Lorraine,) to purely German territory so that in the future his creation would not be troubled by other powers wanting territoral readjustments.

Bismarck played his hand much better and knew when to put on the breaks. He was also against acquiring Alsace, it should be said, as he wanted to avoid a future war with France over that disputed territory. However, Bismarck was overruled by the German military that wanted a prize and this planted the seed that doomed his Imperial creation. If Hitler could have stopped at acquiring only German-populated territory and consolidating his power, he might have had long-term success.



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03 Jun 2011, 7:39 pm

Hitler was VASTLY incompetent. But there were negotiations between Germany and Mexico around the time of Pearl Harbor, but the Japanese screwed up the declaration and our Southern neighbor got cold feet.

No, pacifism would not have stopped WW2, not in the least. Germany and Japan never thought about that.

Isn't it Axis history to deny the Holocaust?

You can support troops but not support a war. They were taken there by politicians, not of their own free will.


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donnie_darko
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03 Jun 2011, 7:45 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:

You can support troops but not support a war. They were taken there by politicians, not of their own free will.


What about those who signed up after 9/11?



Philologos
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03 Jun 2011, 7:50 pm

What is it they say is the triumph of hope over experience? Put pacifism on the list.

It takes two to make a fight.

It only takes one to make a massacre.

The world will never run out of bullies.

I THINK it will also never be without heroes.



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03 Jun 2011, 7:51 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
HerrGrimm wrote:
You can support troops but not support a war. They were taken there by politicians, not of their own free will.


What about those who signed up after 9/11?


They would not be there PERIOD without some political body telling them to go.


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