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daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 8:01 am

Is there something fundamentally superior about humans in comparison to other animals? If so, what is it?

I definitely think in the way that we measure and define intelligence currently that humans are WAY more intelligent than other animals. There is evidence, for example, that language (being able to acquire a "grammar" of a language) is uniquely human. Even the gorillas who have learned sign language haven't internalized a grammar enough so that they can create their own new sentences and change around words according to the grammar ect. Linguists classify this as communication but not language.

However ,the question remains: does this kind of intelligence equate with goodness or the ability to love and be altruistic and empathetic? Does it equate with what's valuable and sacred about human life or life in general? What about some people with severe or profound intellectual disabilities? Some are incapable of acquiring language the way non-human animals are, with a grasp of the grammar so they can construct and understand an infinite number of novel sentences.How much intelligence is required for goodness? Does this make them less valuable? If not , why not? Is it because they're human and human life is sacred?

I think part of it comes down to whether you believe in souls or spirits that other creatures don't have and whether you believe that humans have souls and this accounts for (at least some of) their potential for goodness. Of course some believe animals have souls too but then there are some tricky questions -do fish have souls? How about other living things? Do microbes?Do plants ect.

If you don't believe in souls all of our potential for goodness comes from our physical brain., doesn't it? Instinctual emotions reside in the limbic system which both humans and animals have. Humans have a more developed neo-cortex which is thought to be necessary for conscious thought. Is conscious thought necessary for goodness? Is it necessary to make life valuable? If not, are the lives of humans who have brain damage and have lost this capacity to a certain extent still as valuable?



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21 Apr 2013, 9:06 am

part alien creatures?



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21 Apr 2013, 9:07 am

I find human life "valuable" as a result of enlightened self-interest.

From a purely objective standpoint, I don't believe there's anything that makes humans any more "valuable" than worms, toads, or hamsters.


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21 Apr 2013, 9:43 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
Is there something fundamentally superior about humans in comparison to other animals? If so, what is it?

I definitely think in the way that we measure and define intelligence currently that humans are WAY more intelligent than other animals. There is evidence, for example, that language (being able to acquire a "grammar" of a language) is uniquely human. Even the gorillas who have learned sign language haven't internalized a grammar enough so that they can create their own new sentences and change around words according to the grammar ect. Linguists classify this as communication but not language.

However ,the question remains: does this kind of intelligence equate with goodness or the ability to love and be altruistic and empathetic? Does it equate with what's valuable and sacred about human life or life in general? What about some people with severe or profound intellectual disabilities? Some are incapable of acquiring language the way non-human animals are, with a grasp of the grammar so they can construct and understand an infinite number of novel sentences.How much intelligence is required for goodness? Does this make them less valuable? If not , why not? Is it because they're human and human life is sacred?

I think part of it comes down to whether you believe in souls or spirits that other creatures don't have and whether you believe that humans have souls and this accounts for (at least some of) their potential for goodness. Of course some believe animals have souls too but then there are some tricky questions -do fish have souls? How about other living things? Do microbes?Do plants ect.

If you don't believe in souls all of our potential for goodness comes from our physical brain., doesn't it? Instinctual emotions reside in the limbic system which both humans and animals have. Humans have a more developed neo-cortex which is thought to be necessary for conscious thought. Is conscious thought necessary for goodness? Is it necessary to make life valuable? If not, are the lives of humans who have brain damage and have lost this capacity to a certain extent still as valuable?


Just jumped across from the cat thread in General, and quoting your question here:

Quote:
How important are these capabilities of the brain? Do these higher capabilities (conscious thought ect.) which require parts of the neo-cortex equate with what makes life valuable? If so, what about people who don't have these capabilities because of brain damage -developmental or otherwise?


What I was talking about, was not that humans are more or less important, valuable or superior to any other animal. Your point is totally separate to what I was saying in the cat thread. However, addressing your point, Christians (I do not follow any man-made religion) would quote the bible (and other religions would quote their holy books) as to why humans were intended by God to be superior. I have a vague recollection about the bible describing serpents and other lowly forms of creatures as if it would be a punishment to be one or to be among them. Noah made an ark (either in myth or reality) to house animals that he needed for the survival of humans, not because he thought they were cute and cuddly or because he cared about their rights. Some religions believe pigs are filthy and won't eat their meat, which is a separate issue than humans believing we have the right to do what we want to animals because we are superior to them. Humans are animals too and are intended to eat meat. If you look at it that way, we are serving our function like every other predator or omnivore, we are not saying that animals have less rights, just performing a biological function.


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daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 10:03 am

^^^
Okay, I know that wasn't your point in the cat thread. I just think these fundamental questions are underlie questions about whether animals have the same emotional capabilities as humans and.....I find them interesting to ponder.

I eat meat and I'm not an animal rights person although I do strongly believe in animal welfare (which is treating animals as kindly as possible while still using them). Other animals eat meat-humans are omnivorous by nature. Still are humans just another kind of animal? Our our lives then not really more valuable in any kind of fundamental way? If they are more valuable what is this thing that makes them more valuable?

I do not follow any organized religion fully or believe in what it says in the bible (especially not in a literal sense). I wouldn't believe that we're superior because the bible says so. Still, I do believe in a higher being and a spiritual part of ourselves.....something beyond what is physical or natural.



daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 10:11 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
I find human life "valuable" as a result of enlightened self-interest.

From a purely objective standpoint, I don't believe there's anything that makes humans any more "valuable" than worms, toads, or hamsters.


So we're just gene propagation machines but because we are self aware and conscious due to higher brain functions we think of human life as valuable? It's not really...it's just in our self interest to believe that and preserve our existence? A bleak world view but maybe the truth. I really hope not....I don't want to believe that. Do you believe in altruism or love? So you think the capacity for these things makes life any more valuable?



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21 Apr 2013, 10:21 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
...does...intelligence equate with goodness or the ability to love and be altruistic and empathetic?

Not necessarily. Many species instinctively practice "family" and "community" for survival whether or not they are aware of even doing so.

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Does [intelligence] equate with what's valuable and sacred about human life or life in general?

Yes, I believe so. The same kinds of natural instincts exist for us as for other animals, but our free will and "intelligence" go hand-in-hand (and hopefully in humility) as we get to decide whether and/or how to participate in life.

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What about some people with severe or profound intellectual disabilities?

Where other animals might simply "cull the herd", we show compassion and care for them...and thus have their lives contributed to life for all.


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21 Apr 2013, 11:15 am

Life is something we can easily destroy be cannot make. Perhaps we should be very careful of how much and what kind of life we destroy.

ruveyn



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21 Apr 2013, 11:23 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
Is there something fundamentally superior about humans in comparison to other animals? If so, what is it?

I definitely think in the way that we measure and define intelligence currently that humans are WAY more intelligent than other animals. There is evidence, for example, that language (being able to acquire a "grammar" of a language) is uniquely human. Even the gorillas who have learned sign language haven't internalized a grammar enough so that they can create their own new sentences and change around words according to the grammar ect. Linguists classify this as communication but not language.

However ,the question remains: does this kind of intelligence equate with goodness or the ability to love and be altruistic and empathetic? Does it equate with what's valuable and sacred about human life or life in general? What about some people with severe or profound intellectual disabilities? Some are incapable of acquiring language the way non-human animals are, with a grasp of the grammar so they can construct and understand an infinite number of novel sentences.How much intelligence is required for goodness? Does this make them less valuable? If not , why not? Is it because they're human and human life is sacred?

I think part of it comes down to whether you believe in souls or spirits that other creatures don't have and whether you believe that humans have souls and this accounts for (at least some of) their potential for goodness. Of course some believe animals have souls too but then there are some tricky questions -do fish have souls? How about other living things? Do microbes?Do plants ect.

If you don't believe in souls all of our potential for goodness comes from our physical brain., doesn't it? Instinctual emotions reside in the limbic system which both humans and animals have. Humans have a more developed neo-cortex which is thought to be necessary for conscious thought. Is conscious thought necessary for goodness? Is it necessary to make life valuable? If not, are the lives of humans who have brain damage and have lost this capacity to a certain extent still as valuable?


Humans may have superior technology, but that does not make them superior, or more capable of goodness, than animals. Humans are animals.

As too why life is sacred ... tough question. But why shouldn't it be considered sacred?



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21 Apr 2013, 2:55 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Life is something we can easily destroy be cannot make. Perhaps we should be very careful of how much and what kind of life we destroy.

ruveyn



Brillliantly put! Couldn't agree more. :hail:

Humans have a choice to be altruistic and/or loving, but some choose to destroy life wantonly, whether that be animal life (as in hunting as a "sport" or for beauty alone as opposed to survival), and of course human life. We all need to take responsibility for the choices that we make.

Non-domestic carnivorous animals don't have the choice because they need to survive. I'm not really a vegetarian, for instance, but prefer to eat as little meat as possible. But I don't have anything against people that eat meat every day.

We may be "intellectually" superior but the human race as a species has ruined the planet far more than any other species put together.



daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 3:00 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Life is something we can easily destroy be cannot make. Perhaps we should be very careful of how much and what kind of life we destroy.

ruveyn


I agree with this. I like the way you phrase things.



daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 3:07 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
Humans have a choice to be altruistic and/or loving, but some choose to destroy life wantonly, whether that be animal life (as in hunting as a "sport" or for beauty alone as opposed to survival), and of course human life. We all need to take responsibility for the choices that we make.


I agree with this

envirozentinel wrote:
We may be "intellectually" superior but the human race as a species has ruined the planet far more than any other species put together.


With our level of intellect we're probably just capable of both goodness and evil on a greater scale. Non-human animals probably would cause the same amount of damage if they were able to.

Still I agree with your first point and as someone else said that with our greater intellectual capacity we have more free will and can choose to be better and perhaps as a species we can see how much damage our destructive impulses have caused us and others and try to curb those impulses.



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21 Apr 2013, 3:14 pm

Human beings are superior because we are human. If a lion could think and speak on our level, to him, a lion would be superior. Superiority is a subjective trait.

Of course, I could argue that humans are superior because you are capable of asking that question. Any other predator, if faced with no predators of his own, would think nothing of killing and eating to feed himself even if the population of his species were outgrowing the ecosystem's ability to support them. We ask, we grow concerned, and we take action to balance our impact on the environment. That might just make us objectively superior.



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21 Apr 2013, 3:21 pm

The human brain has specialized in thinking, the giraffe's neck has specialized in reaching, the birds wings have specialized in flying...



daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 3:22 pm

Dragoness wrote:
As too why life is sacred ... tough question. But why shouldn't it be considered sacred?


Intuitively I believe that life is sacred. My intuitions lead me to think that all life is sacred, human life is most sacred and the lives of animals that are more like humans are more sacred than the lives of those less like humans (like fish). However these intuitions might just be a result of the survival instinct. I have to believe human life is valuable because of the evolutionary need to preserve my life and the lives of humans I;m dependent on and the lives of those who carry my genes.

If life is inherently sacred ,what is it that makes it so? I don't think bacterial life is sacred. Sometimes bacteria is helpful to us and then it should be preserved but when it's harmful to us (humans) I wouldn't think twice of disposing of it. So what is it that makes life sacred-when you go from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells , from single celled to multicellular organisms, when you go from simple brain structures with just a hind brain and mid brain to a developed fore brain(neocortex) what is it that comes into being that makes such a big difference in terms of the value of life? Is it intelligence, consciousness, sentience ect.? Is it something not physical or tangible at all like a spirit or soul? Or maybe it doesn't exist, we just want/need to believe it does.



Last edited by daydreamer84 on 21 Apr 2013, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daydreamer84
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21 Apr 2013, 3:35 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
What about some people with severe or profound intellectual disabilities?

leejosepho wrote:
Where other animals might simply "cull the herd", we show compassion and care for them...and thus have their lives contributed to life for all.


Well, does that mean that if you get right down to the life of a person with a profound intellectual disability who can't speak is worth less than the life of a person with an average IQ? Do we just keep them alive and have them contribute what they can because of human compassion and because our society can afford to do it...we've gotten to a point in human societies at which this is possible? So , to be really dramatic, if it came down to a choice of saving a person A or person B and person B had a profound intellectual disability whereas person A were intelligent (as we measure and define it) but we knew nothing else about person A and B it would be right to save person A over person B?

Edit: I find the above idea really disturbing.