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Ishi2
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08 Dec 2015, 11:12 am

I have a question for Christians/Jews/Muslims or adherents of any other monotheistic religion.

Does God say something is wrong (murder for instance) because it's actually wrong, or is it wrong because God says it's wrong?

If it's the former, then morality is arbitrary. God could change his mind at any moment. Murder might be moral today and immoral tomorrow.

If it's the latter, then morality is independent of any god(s).

What do you think?


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neilson_wheels
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08 Dec 2015, 12:11 pm

What if it is both, rather than one or the other. There seems to be a flaw in your argument.



0_equals_true
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08 Dec 2015, 1:29 pm

There are many thing in theistic morality that have nothing whatsoever to do with right or wrong, but more ritual adherence.

The whole point of absolute morality is it takes the responsibility of determining right or wrong away from the believer.



0_equals_true
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08 Dec 2015, 1:30 pm

Or at least tries to, if it could be consistent.



Fnord
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08 Dec 2015, 1:40 pm

IF God changes His mind.

How often has He done that?


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08 Dec 2015, 7:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
IF God changes His mind.

How often has He done that?

The stories of Lot & Abraham come to mind...let's face it the OT god, Yahweh was downright irrational...and if you jump to the NT, we've got two to four different accounts of some of the stories that are actually incompatible, yet all are assumed to have been penned with the guidance of the Xian god.


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nurseangela
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08 Dec 2015, 8:11 pm

Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.


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Fnord
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08 Dec 2015, 8:18 pm

nurseangela wrote:
Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? Deuteronomy 20:16-17 says ...
Quote:
"Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you..."
Murder is wrong; but mass murder, it seems, is not.


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nurseangela
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08 Dec 2015, 8:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? Deuteronomy 20:16-17 says ...
Quote:
"Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you..."
Murder is wrong; but mass murder, it seems, is not.


That's the problem with certain parts of the Bible, Mr. F, people can take it however they want and then twist it to fit how they want. The Ten Commandments are straightforward - Thou Shall Not Kill. Can't really twist that into anything else, can you?


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kraftiekortie
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08 Dec 2015, 8:52 pm

Killing someone is wrong on many levels--moral and practical.



Fnord
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08 Dec 2015, 9:03 pm

nurseangela wrote:
Fnord wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? Deuteronomy 20:16-17 says ...
Quote:
"Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you..."
Murder is wrong; but mass murder, it seems, is not.
That's the problem with certain parts of the Bible, Mr. F, people can take it however they want and then twist it to fit how they want. The Ten Commandments are straightforward - Thou Shall Not Kill. Can't really twist that into anything else, can you?
I haven't "twisted" anything. Look it up for yourself.
These are also Commandments, from Exodus 22...

Quote:
"Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed


And this, from Leviticus 20...

Quote:
9 "'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

11 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


And this, from Leviticus 24...

Quote:
Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him ... anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death ... Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.


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Edenthiel
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08 Dec 2015, 9:05 pm

nurseangela wrote:
Fnord wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? Deuteronomy 20:16-17 says ...
Quote:
"Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you..."
Murder is wrong; but mass murder, it seems, is not.


That's the problem with certain parts of the Bible, Mr. F, people can take it however they want and then twist it to fit how they want. The Ten Commandments are straightforward - Thou Shall Not Kill. Can't really twist that into anything else, can you?


If you study the documents, instead of the modern, relativistic pop-culture version, the Ten Commandments were Yahweh's directives to His People - the Hebrew People, and no one else. When they mention something like, "neighbor" it's referring to *other Hebrew people only*.


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Fnord
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08 Dec 2015, 10:26 pm

Edenthiel wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Fnord wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? Deuteronomy 20:16-17 says ...
Quote:
"Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you..."
Murder is wrong; but mass murder, it seems, is not.
That's the problem with certain parts of the Bible, Mr. F, people can take it however they want and then twist it to fit how they want. The Ten Commandments are straightforward - Thou Shall Not Kill. Can't really twist that into anything else, can you?
If you study the documents, instead of the modern, relativistic pop-culture version, the Ten Commandments were Yahweh's directives to His People - the Hebrew People, and no one else. When they mention something like, "neighbor" it's referring to *other Hebrew people only*.
That's the problem with those of us who have actually read and studied the Bible in its entirety - we are especially bothersome to those who play a game of Selective Christianity, where the goal is to see how many Biblical rules can be stacked against an opponent while ignoring or dismissing those rules that can be stacked against one's self.


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wowiexist
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08 Dec 2015, 10:54 pm

I am a Christian and I just worry mostly about the verse where Jesus says to love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself. Whatever I have to do to accomplish those things is all I feel like I need to worry about.



nurseangela
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08 Dec 2015, 10:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Fnord wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Huh? Murder is wrong. It's in the 10 Commandments, which have never changed.
Have you ever actually read the Bible? Deuteronomy 20:16-17 says ...
Quote:
"Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you..."
Murder is wrong; but mass murder, it seems, is not.
That's the problem with certain parts of the Bible, Mr. F, people can take it however they want and then twist it to fit how they want. The Ten Commandments are straightforward - Thou Shall Not Kill. Can't really twist that into anything else, can you?
If you study the documents, instead of the modern, relativistic pop-culture version, the Ten Commandments were Yahweh's directives to His People - the Hebrew People, and no one else. When they mention something like, "neighbor" it's referring to *other Hebrew people only*.
That's the problem with those of us who have actually read and studied the Bible in its entirety - we are especially bothersome to those who play a game of Selective Christianity, where the goal is to see how many Biblical rules can be stacked against an opponent while ignoring or dismissing those rules that can be stacked against one's self.


I know plenty of Jehovah Witnesses who can recite their Bible word for word, but I'm not impressed and I would still slam my door in their face. Why? Because most of them that I knew never lived by what they could preach. What I also find funny is how many Atheist have read the Bible and don't even believe in God. I may not have read the entire Bible and studied it like you have, but I believe in the God who wrote it and I try to live by it the best I can. I've been preached to my whole life from the Bible by the Catholic Church and the priests who also know the Word of the God very well, telling me how I should conduct myself while they were in the back rooms sinning up a storm. The Catholic Church knows the Word of the Bible very well too, but most of them will probably end up in hell.


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Fnord
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09 Dec 2015, 8:05 am

wowiexist wrote:
I am a Christian and I just worry mostly about the verse where Jesus says to love God above all things and love your neighbor as yourself. Whatever I have to do to accomplish those things is all I feel like I need to worry about.
In Jesus' name: Praise and worship God; feed the hungry; clothe the naked; comfort the grieving; give generously; guide the lost; house the homeless; be thankful to God; visit those in prison (whether or not the prison is of their own making); make peace; forgive those who afflict you; heal the afflicted; and spread the Gospel. Above all, do so selflessly, without expecting to be rewarded in any way.

That's pretty much the Law and the Word.


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