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The_Walrus
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23 Mar 2015, 7:16 am

MollyTroubletail wrote:
I can only speak from personal experience. I used to be a happy atheist until Jesus appeared to me one night totally out of the blue. It was shocking. Either I'm hallucinating or it really happened, and I'm leaning to the it really happened side.

There's lots of evidence that hallucinations exist (particularly at night time...), and no evidence that "Jesus" exists.

Indeed, many Indian people report having similarly vivid hallucinations of Hindu gods. You can't both be right.

Conclusion: you hallucinated.



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23 Mar 2015, 7:31 am

MollyTroubletail wrote:
I can only speak from personal experience. I used to be a happy atheist until Jesus appeared to me one night totally out of the blue. It was shocking. Either I'm hallucinating or it really happened, and I'm leaning to the it really happened side. If God touches you, then that's all the proof you're gonna need. If you don't feel the spirit of God then you'll probably keep asking if he can be proved or disproved.


Have you ever looked at one of those drawings by Escher in which the stairs appear to be going up forever? Have you ever looked at any of those studies where witnesses of exactly the same scene remember very different "facts" about it? Have you ever looked up at night and seen a star that appeared to be moving rapidly across the sky, and then realized that the star is motionless and it's the clouds moving that made the star appear to be moving?

Our brains play tricks on us. This is why personal experience is so unreliable. When these experiences are studied under properly-controlled conditions, they turn out to be brain malfunctions. This is not necessarily an indication of any sort of mental illness. It is entirely neurotypical. Our brains do this sort of thing all the time. Some people, however, interpret such experiences to communication from God. Others recognize them for what they are: the brain misinterpreting signals or random noises.

Personal experience, without proper scientific controls, is the most unreliable indicator of reality there is.



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23 Mar 2015, 8:28 am

I know...I'm singing the same old song...

But: Belief in Gods/gods/spirits/ghosts, etc. is based upon "faith." This is shown, in most explicit form, by the "happy atheist" who was seen by Jesus one night. She acquired "faith" through the "visitation."

Nonbelief is these is also primarily based upon "faith."



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23 Mar 2015, 8:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Galahs like you spouting incessant nonsense, I suppose.

You reckon they know what a Galah is mate?


This American had to google. :o

Some insults are universal. Some are so geographically or culturally specific that they don't work too well as insults outside those areas and groups. A little red bird with a funny call. hmmmmm......

google found me this video



adorable!

Yes, yes Oldavid I get that the insult is for anybody who just repeats back things they've heard. But that adorable Galah in the youtube video just charmed me :heart: so sweet



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23 Mar 2015, 8:46 am

Ah....I love this Levity within this Thread!

This will surely add another 25 pages to it!



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23 Mar 2015, 9:04 am

The_Walrus wrote:
There's lots of evidence that hallucinations exist (particularly at night time...)

That better be true, I have hallucinations of this vague floating mass of some sort every other night or so,
I don't want demons coming out of hell right into my bedroom or something, no matter how much I want to prove God exists!


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23 Mar 2015, 9:19 am

There's a fine line between dreams and hallucinations.



The_Walrus
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23 Mar 2015, 9:59 am

appletheclown wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
There's lots of evidence that hallucinations exist (particularly at night time...)

That better be true, I have hallucinations of this vague floating mass of some sort every other night or so,
I don't want demons coming out of hell right into my bedroom or something, no matter how much I want to prove God exists!

Yes, there is lots of evidence that dreams happen.



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23 Mar 2015, 10:01 am

Yeah....there's lots of evidence!

I dream.....and I've known that I've dreamt since the age of 5.

Indisputable proof!



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23 Mar 2015, 10:43 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yeah....there's lots of evidence!

I dream.....and I've known that I've dreamt since the age of 5.

Indisputable proof!


the proof is that many others have reported the same thing.



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23 Mar 2015, 10:46 am

Anecdotal evidence, while imprecise, must be employed to prove at least some hypotheses.



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23 Mar 2015, 11:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
There's lots of evidence that hallucinations exist (particularly at night time...)

That better be true, I have hallucinations of this vague floating mass of some sort every other night or so,
I don't want demons coming out of hell right into my bedroom or something, no matter how much I want to prove God exists!

Yes, there is lots of evidence that dreams happen.

I meant hallucinations, not dreams. Dreams rely on memory, for example the faces you see in dreams are most likely faces you've seen in real life.
This hallucination happens when I haven't fallen asleep yet, therefore it isn't a dream, it is a hallucination.


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23 Mar 2015, 12:02 pm

Remember how John Lennon asked us to “imagine there is no Heaven”? Let’s try taking that out a little further. Unlike Lennon’s mental exercise, this may be a little trickier, since your human memory has nothing to compare it to, but strain your brain and give it a shot.

Imagine there is no existence. No you. No world. No Solar system, No galaxies, no outer space of any kind. No anything. No anywhere. Not even a pinpoint.

Imagine there is nothing, except emerging consciousness. No universe, no matter, no time. Only consciousness.

Within consciousness emerge patterns, repetitive constructs of thought. Consciousness imagines these patterns vibrating, bringing into existence spatial dimensions and some form of time.

Each vibrating pattern is its own form of individual consciousness. As the patterns vibrate, they produce waves, which interact to form particulate matter, building more patterns and acquiring mass. Each level of creation births its own new forms of consciousness and matter, each still part of the source, yet with its own independent form of awareness, through which the source can experience itself, each vibrating in harmony with the base patterns.

Only now can the interacting waves patterns form electrons and elemental particles.

Now, from here on, you can accept the Big Bang Theory of the expanding and contracting universe, because that’s what you’ve been told for years is the gospel according to The Cult of Science, but the BBT has recently been called into serious question, so you might look into the equations that indicate the universe has “always” been here (at least so long as there has been “time”), that every imaginable universe that could exist actually does exist, or that time somehow actually runs forward and backward at the same…er...time.

Quantum Equation Predicts Universe Has No Beginning

A Web of Alternate Timelines

What if dreams are just glimpses of all the weird stuff happening to other incarnations of our consciousness in alternate corners of the Multiverse? 8O

Point being, there is no reason to assume that all of existence is a complete accident, because that theory actually makes less sense than the notion of intelligent design. Some people are just so angry at having been fooled by the Santa Claus story as a child, that they make it their life’s mission to viciously assault anything that might even remotely lend support to the Christian Myths that they also feel are an intentional attempt to deceive and humiliate them.

Unfortunately, they’re throwing the baby out with the bath water. You don’t have to accept Yahweh the Hairy Thunderer or Jesus the Cosmic Muffin in order to imagine that the universe is a living, vibrant, conscious organism and you aren’t just a bag of insensate chemicals, whose awareness is created entirely by your brain and ceases to exist utterly when your body stops functioning. If that were true, it would be impossible for patients whose bodies experience clinical brain death – cessation of all electrical and chemical activity – to start breathing, wake up and describe in detail events that took place in the operating room while they were technically and completely dead. And like it or not, it does happen.

What has never happened, is that living microbes have magically and spontaneously generated out of a vat of “Primordial Ooze” in the lab, proving that life itself is a random accident. Nor have there been discovered the missing links that clearly demonstrate the gradual evolution of one species into another distinctly different species. Mutation, yes. Evolution, not so much.

So there isn’t that.

Modern man does not have all the keys of wisdom and knowledge that could ever be known. Only about a hundred and fifty years ago, we didn’t even know that bacteria and viruses caused disease, so assuming that we can know absolutely what is and what can never be, is pretty arrogant, not to mention closed-minded. Which is probably why the aliens still don’t think we’re worth talking to. :alien:


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23 Mar 2015, 1:06 pm

appletheclown wrote:
I meant hallucinations, not dreams. Dreams rely on memory, for example the faces you see in dreams are most likely faces you've seen in real life.
This hallucination happens when I haven't fallen asleep yet, therefore it isn't a dream, it is a hallucination.


There is a state between awake and asleep called hypnagogia. Pre-dream hallucinations can happen there and be scary because you are under the impression that you are still awake. I've had these with zapping sounds that scared me into thinking I was about to have a seizure (I've never had a seizure) but it's all completely normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hypnagogia&redirect=no

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Transition to and from sleep may be attended by a wide variety of sensory experiences. These can occur in any modality, individually or combined, and range from the vague and barely perceptible to vivid hallucinations.[21]



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23 Mar 2015, 1:32 pm

will@rd wrote:
Remember how John Lennon asked us to “imagine there is no Heaven”? Let’s try taking that out a little further. Unlike Lennon’s mental exercise, this may be a little trickier, since your human memory has nothing to compare it to, but strain your brain and give it a shot.

Imagine there is no existence. No you. No world. No Solar system, No galaxies, no outer space of any kind. No anything. No anywhere. Not even a pinpoint.

Imagine there is nothing, except emerging consciousness. No universe, no matter, no time. Only consciousness.

Within consciousness emerge patterns, repetitive constructs of thought. Consciousness imagines these patterns vibrating, bringing into existence spatial dimensions and some form of time.

Each vibrating pattern is its own form of individual consciousness. As the patterns vibrate, they produce waves, which interact to form particulate matter, building more patterns and acquiring mass. Each level of creation births its own new forms of consciousness and matter, each still part of the source, yet with its own independent form of awareness, through which the source can experience itself, each vibrating in harmony with the base patterns.

Only now can the interacting waves patterns form electrons and elemental particles.

Now, from here on, you can accept the Big Bang Theory of the expanding and contracting universe, because that’s what you’ve been told for years is the gospel according to The Cult of Science, but the BBT has recently been called into serious question, so you might look into the equations that indicate the universe has “always” been here (at least so long as there has been “time”), that every imaginable universe that could exist actually does exist, or that time somehow actually runs forward and backward at the same…er...time.

Quantum Equation Predicts Universe Has No Beginning

A Web of Alternate Timelines

What if dreams are just glimpses of all the weird stuff happening to other incarnations of our consciousness in alternate corners of the Multiverse? 8O

Point being, there is no reason to assume that all of existence is a complete accident, because that theory actually makes less sense than the notion of intelligent design. Some people are just so angry at having been fooled by the Santa Claus story as a child, that they make it their life’s mission to viciously assault anything that might even remotely lend support to the Christian Myths that they also feel are an intentional attempt to deceive and humiliate them.

Unfortunately, they’re throwing the baby out with the bath water. You don’t have to accept Yahweh the Hairy Thunderer or Jesus the Cosmic Muffin in order to imagine that the universe is a living, vibrant, conscious organism and you aren’t just a bag of insensate chemicals, whose awareness is created entirely by your brain and ceases to exist utterly when your body stops functioning. If that were true, it would be impossible for patients whose bodies experience clinical brain death – cessation of all electrical and chemical activity – to start breathing, wake up and describe in detail events that took place in the operating room while they were technically and completely dead. And like it or not, it does happen.

What has never happened, is that living microbes have magically and spontaneously generated out of a vat of “Primordial Ooze” in the lab, proving that life itself is a random accident. Nor have there been discovered the missing links that clearly demonstrate the gradual evolution of one species into another distinctly different species. Mutation, yes. Evolution, not so much.

So there isn’t that.

Modern man does not have all the keys of wisdom and knowledge that could ever be known. Only about a hundred and fifty years ago, we didn’t even know that bacteria and viruses caused disease, so assuming that we can know absolutely what is and what can never be, is pretty arrogant, not to mention closed-minded. Which is probably why the aliens still don’t think we’re worth talking to. :alien:


There is wisdom here.

This IS refreshing.

Facebook Like 1

:)


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23 Mar 2015, 1:34 pm

will@rd wrote:

What has never happened, is that living microbes have magically and spontaneously generated out of a vat of “Primordial Ooze” in the lab, proving that life itself is a random accident.

The Miller-Urey experiment hasn't been running for a billion years which is how long it took the first single celled life to arise. But it did manage to make amino acids out of its version of primordial ooze.

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Nor have there been discovered the missing links that clearly demonstrate the gradual evolution of one species into another distinctly different species. Mutation, yes. Evolution, not so much.


There have been lots and lots of them discovered. They are called transitional fossils and many have been found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil


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The idea of a "missing link" between humans and so-called "lower" animals remains lodged in the public imagination.[55] The search for a fossil showing transitional traits between apes and humans, however, was fruitless until the young Dutch geologist Eugène Dubois found a skullcap, a molar and a femur on the banks of Solo River, Java in 1891. The find combined a low, ape-like skull roof with a brain estimated at around 1000 cc, midway between that of a chimpanzee and an adult human. The single molar was larger than any modern human tooth, but the femur was long and straight, with a knee angle showing that "Java man" had walked upright.[56] Given the name Pithecanthropus erectus ("erect ape-man"), it became the first in what is now a long list of human evolution fossils. At the time it was hailed by many as the "missing link", helping set the term as primarily used for human fossils, though it is sometimes used for other intermediates, like the dinosaur-bird intermediary Archaeopteryx.[57][58]

"Missing link" is still a popular term, well recognized by the public and often used in the popular media. It is, however, avoided in the scientific press, as it relates to the concept of the great chain of being and to the notion of simple organisms being primitive versions of complex ones, both of which have been discarded in biology.[59] In any case, the term itself is misleading, as any known transitional fossil, like Java Man, is no longer missing. While each find will give rise to new gaps in the evolutionary story on each side, the discovery of more and more transitional fossils continues to add to our knowledge of evolutionary transitions.[4][60]



Will@rd wrote:
Modern man does not have all the keys of wisdom and knowledge that could ever be known. Only about a hundred and fifty years ago, we didn’t even know that bacteria and viruses caused disease, so assuming that we can know absolutely what is and what can never be, is pretty arrogant, not to mention closed-minded. Which is probably why the aliens still don’t think we’re worth talking to. :alien:


We don't know everything there is to know. But then no scientist ever said we did- only that fictional narratives don't fill the gap too well. I can accept not knowing. I'm not going to try to fill my knowledge gap with 'well it might be true you just never know' narratives. But give the history of microbiology a little credit for its age. Its actual age is 469 years, not 150.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease
Quote:
Girolamo Fracastoro proposed in 1546 that epidemic diseases are caused by transferable seed-like entities that transmit infection by direct or indirect contact, or even without contact over long distances.


Of course that was just a hypothesis. It was over a hundred years until somebody started running experiments. This is one of my all-time favorite experiments because it is so simple and elegant and you can do it at home yet it destroyed the concept of spontaneous generation- the first step in refining germ theory.
Quote:
Italian physician Francesco Redi provided early evidence against spontaneous generation. He devised an experiment in 1668 in which he used three jars. He placed a meatloaf and egg in each of the three jars. He had one of the jars open, another one tightly sealed, and the last one covered with gauze. After a few days, he observed that the meatloaf in the open jar was covered by maggots, and the jar covered with gauze had maggots on the surface of the gauze. However, the tightly sealed jar had no maggots inside or outside it. He also noticed that the maggots were found only on surfaces that were accessible by flies. From this he concluded that spontaneous generation is not a plausible theory.


Beautiful! Of course the Miller-Urey experiment seems to contradict that but not actually. The original spontaneous generation theory wasn't using billion year time scales.