Are Women's Rights Against The Bible?
Vexcalibur wrote:
LiberalJustice wrote:
Do you really think that God would tell husbands to love their wives if he viewed Women as pieces of property? I don't.
I do, but then again I think a lot of people love some of their property.
Again, if you think your quote contradicts mine, then it is just a case of the bible contradicting itself. Something that is not particularly hard to find...
So, if you want, Women's rights are against the bible, or at least against the sexist fraction of the bible and we should really not pretend like this fraction does not exist. The bible was written by a bunch of sexist males , after all.
_________________
"I Would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Adopted mother to a cat named Charlotte, and grandmother to 3 kittens.
LiberalJustice wrote:
What about the book of Esther? Was it written by a Man or a Woman? Just curious.
Traditional attestation says that it is written by a man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Es ... p_and_date
Even if this attestation is wrong, what evidence is there that it is written by a woman? It just appears to be written about a woman.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
LiberalJustice wrote:
What about the book of Esther? Was it written by a Man or a Woman? Just curious.
Traditional attestation says that it is written by a man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Es ... p_and_date
Even if this attestation is wrong, what evidence is there that it is written by a woman? It just appears to be written about a woman.
_________________
.
Vexcalibur wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
LiberalJustice wrote:
What about the book of Esther? Was it written by a Man or a Woman? Just curious.
Traditional attestation says that it is written by a man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Es ... p_and_date
Even if this attestation is wrong, what evidence is there that it is written by a woman? It just appears to be written about a woman.
_________________
"I Would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Adopted mother to a cat named Charlotte, and grandmother to 3 kittens.
Genesis 38:
Quote:
At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and lay with her; she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.
Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Live as a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up." For he thought, "He may die too, just like his brothers." So Tamar went to live in her father's house.
After a long time Judah's wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.
When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
"And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
"I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
"Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
"Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
"There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here," they said.
So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn't find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, 'There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here.' "
Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn't find her."
About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Live as a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up." For he thought, "He may die too, just like his brothers." So Tamar went to live in her father's house.
After a long time Judah's wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.
When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
"And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
"I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
"Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
"Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
"There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here," they said.
So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn't find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, 'There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here.' "
Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn't find her."
About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
Burning one's daughter-in-law to death for engaging in prostitution would constitute abuse. But, notice that when Judah learned that he himself was the father, he relented.
There is apparently no problem for a man to use a prostitute. It is only a sin for a woman to be a prostitute. Which does set the market up for a gross imbalance.
Deuteronomy 25:
Quote:
If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.
Seizing an attackers genitals is one of the quickest and surest ways to stop an attack. But, if a man is attacking a woman's husband, and she employs the "seize his genitals" maneuver, then her husband has to cut off her hand, even if she saved his life.
That sounds abusive to me.
pandabear wrote:
Genesis 38:
Burning one's daughter-in-law to death for engaging in prostitution would constitute abuse. But, notice that when Judah learned that he himself was the father, he relented.
There is apparently no problem for a man to use a prostitute. It is only a sin for a woman to be a prostitute. Which does set the market up for a gross imbalance.
By abuse, I mean when a husband treats his wife harshly, if you look at the post I made on page 7, you will find that the Bible condemns it.
Quote:
At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and lay with her; she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.
Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Live as a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up." For he thought, "He may die too, just like his brothers." So Tamar went to live in her father's house.
After a long time Judah's wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.
When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
"And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
"I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
"Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
"Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
"There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here," they said.
So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn't find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, 'There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here.' "
Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn't find her."
About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, "Live as a widow in your father's house until my son Shelah grows up." For he thought, "He may die too, just like his brothers." So Tamar went to live in her father's house.
After a long time Judah's wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.
When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you."
"And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
"I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said.
"Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
"Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. He asked the men who lived there, "Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?"
"There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here," they said.
So he went back to Judah and said, "I didn't find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, 'There hasn't been any shrine prostitute here.' "
Then Judah said, "Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn't find her."
About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. "I am pregnant by the man who owns these," she said. And she added, "See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are."
Judah recognized them and said, "She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn't give her to my son Shelah." And he did not sleep with her again.
Burning one's daughter-in-law to death for engaging in prostitution would constitute abuse. But, notice that when Judah learned that he himself was the father, he relented.
There is apparently no problem for a man to use a prostitute. It is only a sin for a woman to be a prostitute. Which does set the market up for a gross imbalance.
_________________
"I Would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Adopted mother to a cat named Charlotte, and grandmother to 3 kittens.
pandabear wrote:
Burning one's daughter-in-law to death for engaging in prostitution would constitute abuse. But, notice that when Judah learned that he himself was the father, he relented.
If your argument were that Judah appears to be a bit of a barbarian, then I would agree with you. But your argument is that the Bible is barbaric for approving of this. You forgot to establish any evidence that the Bible approves of his actions. There are plenty of examples of stories in the Bible that are told specifically as examples of bad behavior.
Quote:
There is apparently no problem for a man to use a prostitute.
Clearly you haven't read most of the Bible; it is quite clearly stated throughout that both are considered a problem.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Proverbs 6:
Quote:
...keep away from bad women, from the seductive words of other men's wives. Don't be tempted by their beauty; don't be trapped by their flirting eyes. A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread, but adultery will cost him all he has.
Can you carry fire against your chest without burning your clothes? Can you walk on hot clothes without burning your feet? It is just as dangerous to sleep with another man's wife. Whoever does it will suffer. People don't despise a thief if he steals food when he is hungry; yet if he is caught, he must pay back seven times more--he must give up everything he has. But a man who commits adultery doesn't have any sense. He is destroying himself. He will be dishonored and beaten up; he will be permanently disgraced. A husband is never angrier than when he is jealous; his revenge knows no limits. He will not accept any payment; no amount of gifts will satisfy his anger.
...Treat wisdom as your sister, and insight as your closest friend. They will keep you from other men's wives.
In other words, hiring a prostitute is fine, but boning another man's wife constitutes a grand no-no.
The next chapter warns against the married woman who passes herself off as a prostitute.
pandabear wrote:
Proverbs 6:
Quote:
A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread, but adultery will cost him all he has.
That's a description of a (disapproved) situation, not permission to do what is disapproved.
Quote:
The next chapter warns against the married woman who passes herself off as a prostitute.
Actually it warns against an adulterous married woman who dresses like a prostitute, rather than pretending to be one.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Ancalagon wrote:
If your argument were that Judah appears to be a bit of a barbarian, then I would agree with you. But your argument is that the Bible is barbaric for approving of this. You forgot to establish any evidence that the Bible approves of his actions. There are plenty of examples of stories in the Bible that are told specifically as examples of bad behavior.
I am not arguing that Judah is a Barbarian at all. Most of his contemparies would have found no fault with his actions. This does not appear in the Bible specifically as an example of what many modern people would label as "bad behavior." I think that the authors are merely trying to make an honest account, to the best of their ability, of what happened. Nowhere is Judah condemned for his "bad behavior."
Quote:
Clearly you haven't read most of the Bible; it is quite clearly stated throughout that both are considered a problem.
In fact, I have read the entire Bible, including the apocrypha, plus other books that didn't quite make it into the Bible. It is not "clearly state throughout" that hiring a prostitute is "considered a problem." Quite the opposite.
pandabear wrote:
I am not arguing that Judah is a Barbarian at all. Most of his contemparies would have found no fault with his actions.
They probably would have, but for different reasons, like his not giving his son to his daughter-in-law.
What I meant was that he was a barbarian because he lived in a barbaric culture, and if we're going to judge him, we need to remember that and not hold the barbarism of his time against him.
Quote:
Nowhere is Judah condemned for his "bad behavior."
Neither is he applauded for it.
So considering that case obviously gets us nowhere.
Quote:
It is not "clearly state throughout" that hiring a prostitute is "considered a problem." Quite the opposite.
Leviticus 20:29 "Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."
Deuteronomy 23:17-18 "No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute. You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both."
Proverbs 23:3 "... but a companion of prostitutes squanders his wealth"
Proverbs 6:26 "for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread, and the adulteress preys upon your very life."
Or 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 if you want something from the NT.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
My translation of Proverbs 6:23 reads "A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread."
Proverbs 23:3: mine reads "Don't be greedy for the fine food he serves; he may be trying to trick you", and doesn't say anything about prostitutes.
We agreed that God didn't want Israelite women to become prostitutes--thus Judah would have been justified in condemning his daughter-in-law to death.
Joshua 2:
Quote:
Then Joshua sent two spies from the camp at Acacia with orders to go and secretly explore the land of Canaan, especially the city of Jericho. When they came to the city, the went to spend the night in the house of a prostitute named Rahab.
The prostitute becomes the hero of the story.
pandabear wrote:
My translation of Proverbs 6:23 reads "A man can hire a prostitute for the price of a loaf of bread."
Interestingly, looking at a lot of translations side by side (link to online parallel bible), I can't tell which is meant. I may have to try to look up more about this one, as I'm curious about the details of the wording that could lead to ambiguity like this.
Quote:
Proverbs 23:3: mine reads "Don't be greedy for the fine food he serves; he may be trying to trick you", and doesn't say anything about prostitutes.
Sorry, that was a typo: 29:3.
Quote:
We agreed that God didn't want Israelite women to become prostitutes--thus Judah would have been justified in condemning his daughter-in-law to death.
He would not have been justified -- although he might have gotten away with it.
Quote:
The prostitute becomes the hero of the story.
She does. But I don't think that proves that prostitution is not condemned by the Bible.
In the NT, Jesus is harassed by the Pharisees for hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes. That he finds something good in them is not proof that he approves of their prior actions.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Ancalagon wrote:
If your argument were that Judah appears to be a bit of a barbarian, then I would agree with you. But your argument is that the Bible is barbaric for approving of this. You forgot to establish any evidence that the Bible approves of his actions. There are plenty of examples of stories in the Bible that are told specifically as examples of bad behavior.
Judah is one of the more important personnages of the Bible. Anything that a character does in the Bible is to be taken as praiseworthy, unless noted otherwise.
In Genesis 38:6-7:
Quote:
For his first son, Er, Judah got a wife whose name was Tamar. Er's conduct was evil, and it displeased the Lord, so the Lord killed him.
We never learn exactly what Er did, but it must have been pretty darned evil for the Lord to kill him.
Quote:
Then Judah said to Er's brother Onan, "Go and sleep with your brother's widow"....But...when he had intercourse with his brother's widow, he let his semen spill on the ground...What he did displeased the Lord, and the Lord killed him also.
So, there you have it. Spilling your seed on the ground is an indelicacy that the Lord just cannot tolerate. Clearly a capitol offense. Better not try it.
Judah then sends Tamar back to her father's house, and is afraid of allowing her to marry his third son, Shelah, after what happened between Tamar and his first two sons.
The Bible doesn't take issue with Judah using Tamar (whom he did not recognize) as a prostitute, nor with sentencing her to death for acting like a prostitute. Otherwise, the Lord would have killed him, wouldn't he?
Where we do find fault with Judah was for not having given her to Shelah (his third son) in marriage:
Quote:
"She is in the right. I have failed in my obligation to her. I should have given her to my son Shelah in marriage."
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