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The US is heading toward a grave historical mistake.

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Joker
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02 Oct 2011, 12:06 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Israel has weapons of mass destruction.. Their enemies can be assured that these weapons will be used if Israel feels itself to be threatened with total destruction. That is far more potent than the border additions, which, though important, are not as crucial as they were in those past wars with their neighbors. They were conflicts of 1950s-1970s technological development. Most of Israel's neighbors have advanced militarily in the time since, but Israel has a serious edge with the qualitative value of their arsenal. Acknowledging a Palestinian state would be a good thing and would not put Israel into a hopeless strategic position. I don't even feel I need to mention the implications of US involvement if Israel's neighbors launched an invasion. The small size of Israel means their military has a lot less to defend and has given them time to have prepared positions, it is certainly defensible with the modern IDF, especially if they were fully engaged. They have been investing in more of their domestic design "Iron Dome" air defenses which are effective at shooting down rockets. I seriously doubt any invading army could get into Israel even if they gave up territory to an independent Palestine


so Israel is fine even if Palestine is fine too?


I dought it they will find something to fight about :(



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02 Oct 2011, 1:16 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Israel has weapons of mass destruction.. Their enemies can be assured that these weapons will be used if Israel feels itself to be threatened with total destruction. That is far more potent than the border additions, which, though important, are not as crucial as they were in those past wars with their neighbors. They were conflicts of 1950s-1970s technological development. Most of Israel's neighbors have advanced militarily in the time since, but Israel has a serious edge with the qualitative value of their arsenal. Acknowledging a Palestinian state would be a good thing and would not put Israel into a hopeless strategic position. I don't even feel I need to mention the implications of US involvement if Israel's neighbors launched an invasion. The small size of Israel means their military has a lot less to defend and has given them time to have prepared positions, it is certainly defensible with the modern IDF, especially if they were fully engaged. They have been investing in more of their domestic design "Iron Dome" air defenses which are effective at shooting down rockets. I seriously doubt any invading army could get into Israel even if they gave up territory to an independent Palestine


I suggest you guys take a look at a map sometime.



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02 Oct 2011, 1:30 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Israel has weapons of mass destruction.. Their enemies can be assured that these weapons will be used if Israel feels itself to be threatened with total destruction. That is far more potent than the border additions, which, though important, are not as crucial as they were in those past wars with their neighbors. They were conflicts of 1950s-1970s technological development. Most of Israel's neighbors have advanced militarily in the time since, but Israel has a serious edge with the qualitative value of their arsenal. Acknowledging a Palestinian state would be a good thing and would not put Israel into a hopeless strategic position. I don't even feel I need to mention the implications of US involvement if Israel's neighbors launched an invasion. The small size of Israel means their military has a lot less to defend and has given them time to have prepared positions, it is certainly defensible with the modern IDF, especially if they were fully engaged. They have been investing in more of their domestic design "Iron Dome" air defenses which are effective at shooting down rockets. I seriously doubt any invading army could get into Israel even if they gave up territory to an independent Palestine


I suggest you guys take a look at a map sometime.


I addressed your incorrect assumption that Israel is indefensible due to its small geographic size.


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02 Oct 2011, 1:34 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Israel has weapons of mass destruction.. Their enemies can be assured that these weapons will be used if Israel feels itself to be threatened with total destruction. That is far more potent than the border additions, which, though important, are not as crucial as they were in those past wars with their neighbors. They were conflicts of 1950s-1970s technological development. Most of Israel's neighbors have advanced militarily in the time since, but Israel has a serious edge with the qualitative value of their arsenal. Acknowledging a Palestinian state would be a good thing and would not put Israel into a hopeless strategic position. I don't even feel I need to mention the implications of US involvement if Israel's neighbors launched an invasion. The small size of Israel means their military has a lot less to defend and has given them time to have prepared positions, it is certainly defensible with the modern IDF, especially if they were fully engaged. They have been investing in more of their domestic design "Iron Dome" air defenses which are effective at shooting down rockets. I seriously doubt any invading army could get into Israel even if they gave up territory to an independent Palestine


I suggest you guys take a look at a map sometime.


I addressed your incorrect assumption that Israel is indefensible due to its small geographic size.


The only reason Israel survived the Six Day war is cause Israel launched an offensive before the Arab Countries' militaries crossed the border into Israel.

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Setting them up for their country to easily be cut in two is like asking them to commit suicide.



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02 Oct 2011, 1:37 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Israel has weapons of mass destruction.. Their enemies can be assured that these weapons will be used if Israel feels itself to be threatened with total destruction. That is far more potent than the border additions, which, though important, are not as crucial as they were in those past wars with their neighbors. They were conflicts of 1950s-1970s technological development. Most of Israel's neighbors have advanced militarily in the time since, but Israel has a serious edge with the qualitative value of their arsenal. Acknowledging a Palestinian state would be a good thing and would not put Israel into a hopeless strategic position. I don't even feel I need to mention the implications of US involvement if Israel's neighbors launched an invasion. The small size of Israel means their military has a lot less to defend and has given them time to have prepared positions, it is certainly defensible with the modern IDF, especially if they were fully engaged. They have been investing in more of their domestic design "Iron Dome" air defenses which are effective at shooting down rockets. I seriously doubt any invading army could get into Israel even if they gave up territory to an independent Palestine


I suggest you guys take a look at a map sometime.


I addressed your incorrect assumption that Israel is indefensible due to its small geographic size.


The only reason Israel survived the Six Day war is cause Israel launched an offensive before the Arab Countries' militaries crossed the border into Israel.

Image

Setting them up for their country to easily be cut in two is like asking them to commit suicide.


Did you even read what I wrote?


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02 Oct 2011, 1:40 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Israel has weapons of mass destruction.. Their enemies can be assured that these weapons will be used if Israel feels itself to be threatened with total destruction. That is far more potent than the border additions, which, though important, are not as crucial as they were in those past wars with their neighbors. They were conflicts of 1950s-1970s technological development. Most of Israel's neighbors have advanced militarily in the time since, but Israel has a serious edge with the qualitative value of their arsenal. Acknowledging a Palestinian state would be a good thing and would not put Israel into a hopeless strategic position. I don't even feel I need to mention the implications of US involvement if Israel's neighbors launched an invasion. The small size of Israel means their military has a lot less to defend and has given them time to have prepared positions, it is certainly defensible with the modern IDF, especially if they were fully engaged. They have been investing in more of their domestic design "Iron Dome" air defenses which are effective at shooting down rockets. I seriously doubt any invading army could get into Israel even if they gave up territory to an independent Palestine


I suggest you guys take a look at a map sometime.


I addressed your incorrect assumption that Israel is indefensible due to its small geographic size.


The only reason Israel survived the Six Day war is cause Israel launched an offensive before the Arab Countries' militaries crossed the border into Israel.

Image

Setting them up for their country to easily be cut in two is like asking them to commit suicide.


Did you even read what I wrote?


Yeah, but you're saying Israel's enemies hold the same values on human life that we do, and as it has been demonstrated in Syria, they consider human life to have little to no value.



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02 Oct 2011, 1:44 pm

not what i read at all.

i read a well formulated argument detailing why israel has a technological and military advantage, the small area of israel also helps in this regard.

nothing regarding any values of human life


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02 Oct 2011, 1:46 pm

Oodain wrote:
not what i read at all.

i read a well formulated argument detailing why israel has a technological and military advantage, the small area of israel also helps in this regard.

nothing regarding any values of human life


You guys are missing the point, some of the governments over there don't care how many of their own people die. When you are fighting someone that considers his own people to be nothing more than cannon fodder, having the technological edge doesn't matter because they don't care how many of their people die.



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02 Oct 2011, 1:53 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Oodain wrote:
not what i read at all.

i read a well formulated argument detailing why israel has a technological and military advantage, the small area of israel also helps in this regard.

nothing regarding any values of human life


You guys are missing the point, some of the governments over there don't care how many of their own people die. When you are fighting someone that considers his own people to be nothing more than cannon fodder, having the technological edge doesn't matter because they don't care how many of their people die.


Sorry not all of us have the ability to read with the eyes of faith.
Take off the ideological goggles and think.
Is Israel safer with angry crippled neighbor pseudo-state or a state they can trade with?
I say let Palestine become a state then dominate them economically. :twisted:
put factories there make use of the cheap labor.
make money not war. :lol:


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Inuyasha
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02 Oct 2011, 1:57 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Oodain wrote:
not what i read at all.

i read a well formulated argument detailing why israel has a technological and military advantage, the small area of israel also helps in this regard.

nothing regarding any values of human life


You guys are missing the point, some of the governments over there don't care how many of their own people die. When you are fighting someone that considers his own people to be nothing more than cannon fodder, having the technological edge doesn't matter because they don't care how many of their people die.


Sorry not all of us have the ability to read with the eyes of faith.
Take off the ideological goggles and think.
Is Israel safer with angry crippled neighbor pseudo-state or a state they can trade with?
I say let Palestine become a state then dominate them economically. :twisted:
put factories there make use of the cheap labor.
make money not war. :lol:


Israel isn't likely to trade with them or set up shops in those areas because they (the Palestinians) have had a history of destroying shops and ruining chances of actually having economic development so the Palestinians would no longer be in poverty.



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02 Oct 2011, 2:34 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Oodain wrote:
not what i read at all.

i read a well formulated argument detailing why israel has a technological and military advantage, the small area of israel also helps in this regard.

nothing regarding any values of human life


You guys are missing the point, some of the governments over there don't care how many of their own people die. When you are fighting someone that considers his own people to be nothing more than cannon fodder, having the technological edge doesn't matter because they don't care how many of their people die.


You are overstating the danger from Israel's neighboring governments. 30 years ago Israel was under threat of invasion, not really anymore. The biggest problem Israel has are militants who operate internally, and with "Iron Dome" being implemented more and more, rocket attacks are going to be harder for the militants to pull off.

You don't seem to realize that a conflict between Israel and its neighbors would be a turkey shoot for the IDF. The Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians could throw everything they have at Israel and the IDF would cut them to shreds, probably long before they even get close to the border. Israeli intelligence is top notch and would have discovered invasion plans months ahead of time. It is not as easy as it once was (not that it was ever that easy) to mount a clandestine invasion, especially when the country you plan on invading has most of the world's intelligence services providing solid intel and your own armed forces (ie, Egypt, et al) have tons of security leaks due to corruption

You also don't seem to understand: Israel has nuclear weapons and the willingness to use them. That is enough to deter any threat of invasion


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02 Oct 2011, 4:38 pm

Israel isnt afraid of any country in the middle east they have been in every major war that you can thank of the Palestinians are no threat to them :!:



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02 Oct 2011, 7:05 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Not with the pre-1967 borders. Face it, those borders can't be defended and is suicidal.

I actually don't think a two state solution is going to work unless some neighboring countries cough up some real-estate.

Why would that be our problem? Israel didn't really have a right to expand their borders. The mistakes have to be corrected, and if the original territoriy was indefensible then Israel should put a lawsuit against the geniuses that thought it was a good idea to start that country at that location.


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02 Oct 2011, 7:07 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Not with the pre-1967 borders. Face it, those borders can't be defended and is suicidal.

I actually don't think a two state solution is going to work unless some neighboring countries cough up some real-estate.

Why would that be our problem? Israel didn't really have a right to expand their borders. The mistakes have to be corrected, and if the original territoriy was indefensible then Israel should put a lawsuit against the geniuses that thought it was a good idea to start that country at that location.


Because otherwise Christ can't come back to usher in the rapture!

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02 Oct 2011, 7:09 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Not with the pre-1967 borders. Face it, those borders can't be defended and is suicidal.

I actually don't think a two state solution is going to work unless some neighboring countries cough up some real-estate.

Why would that be our problem? Israel didn't really have a right to expand their borders. The mistakes have to be corrected, and if the original territoriy was indefensible then Israel should put a lawsuit against the geniuses that thought it was a good idea to start that country at that location.


Because otherwise Christ can't come back to usher in the rapture!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I guess that's what it all comes back to. Even after I try (ineffectually, thus in vain) to describe the actual military situation of the region. Mind you since that region is destined to be part of the "final battle", defensible borders should be a non issue if there is a guy upstairs intending to keep an eye on s**t


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02 Oct 2011, 7:23 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Not with the pre-1967 borders. Face it, those borders can't be defended and is suicidal.

I actually don't think a two state solution is going to work unless some neighboring countries cough up some real-estate.

Why would that be our problem? Israel didn't really have a right to expand their borders. The mistakes have to be corrected, and if the original territoriy was indefensible then Israel should put a lawsuit against the geniuses that thought it was a good idea to start that country at that location.


The Israelis took the territory from the Six Day War. If you want to get technical about who actually stole the land from the Palestinians it would be the other Arab Countries, not Israel. In fact all Israel did was take the territory away from the other Arab Countries when the other Arab Countries went to attack them, the Arab Countries ended up losing real-estate.

I personally don't think the two-state solution is a good idea, it would be better if the Palestinians just became part of Israel, and treat West Bank as a district in Israel that has representation in the Israeli Government (which has Muslims in it I might add).

Anyways, Israel has valid concerns especially if you look at the increase in violence and brutality of the Syrian Government towards their own people.