Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Understanding Feminism (Women: Your opinions)

Page 8 of 13 [ 201 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Kjas
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,059
Location: the place I'm from doesn't exist anymore

21 Jul 2012, 3:04 am

Zinia wrote:
nominalist wrote:
Zinia wrote:
I like that list. I was originally deterred by Masculism because of the Merriam Webster definition about superiority. But after reading the info on your list, I looked it up on Wikipedia, and I liked Wikipedia's article about Masculism and it's relationship to Feminism. I like how they have two words Masculism and Masculinism--Masculism being pro-equality like I view Feminism, and Mascuilinism being the more anti-female version.


I had a brief email correspondence with the guy who started something called masculinism (a kind of masculism). However, he seems to have dropped off the radar.


According to Wikipedia, Masculinism is kind of an anti-feminism version of Masculism. I love Wikipedia, and it sure as heck beats the Merriam Webster dictionary, in terms of clarifying words...but it really does rely on public debate for veracity.

I've never heard of Masculism before today. I think it sounds pretty awesome, so long as it's not about male superiority.

I like how according to Wiki, there's a different term between Masculism and anti-feminism. It seems that many people are turned off by Feminism because of it's association with anti-male stuff.

This is an interesting exerpt from Wikipedia:
The morphological difference between mascul-ism and mascul-in-ism obviously involves the -in ending: if mascul-in-ism is understood as a defense of masculinity, its morphological counterpart would be femin-in-ism, a defense of femininity. If masculinists are therefore understood as protecting their right to be macho and antifeminist, femininists would then be those who want to protect women's right to use feminine wiles to sway men, complain impotently about men, and generally to enjoy all the traditional prerogatives of traditional women (have doors opened for them, etc.). Masculinism and femininism would thus both be atavistic survivals of the patriarchal war between the sexes.

Mascul-ism, then, would be seen as the morphological equivalent of femin-ism, and masculists and feminists would be seen as allies in the project of transforming the social psychology that sustains patriarchy, and liberating both men and women.[5]


In theory, they should work together, but you need to take into account the psychological effect that happens when you focus on one thing.

The problem I foresee with this is almost the same as the original problem: They are paying an inordinate amount of attention to one side or the other (depending on which side they are on), and that is polarising by it's very nature.

mds_02 wrote:
Zinia wrote:
But I don't see why the movements have to oppose each other at all.

And also, speaking of the beginning of feminism, I think it's really sad to forget individuals like Christine de Pizan. Maybe a movement was possible during the 19th Century, but that movement may have been incubating in thoughts for long before then.

Edit: Also, I don't think there's anything laughable about men's rights movements, so long as it addresses genuine issues for men, and it doesn't try to preserve or instigate male privileged.
nor do I. But they do. And I find it more efficient to abandon both than to try to reconcile their differences.
Edit: go spend some time on men's rights websites and message boards, you'll find that the majority of those who call themselves men's rights activists are deeply misogynistic. The average MRA seems to be about as anti-woman as the most extreme feminists are anti-man.


As per the underlined: We could reconcile the differences if not for the fact that psychologically - it simply entrenches the point of "sides" further by the focus on one or the other. We are not yet purely intellectual beings - despite some would like to think so.


_________________
Diagnostic Tools and Resources for Women with AS: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt211004.html


LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

21 Jul 2012, 3:14 am

mds_02 wrote:
LKL wrote:
This IS what feminism is about, to actual feminists (as opposed to the straw-feminists portrayed in popular culture).


You really like that word. Kinda clever too, I'll grant that. The only problem is that you're denying the existence of people some of us have actually met. This idea you seem to have, that all women who describe themselves as feminist have the same ideals as you or that those who do not are not "actual feminists," is simply false. Honestly, it comes off as a bit arrogant.

First, I didn't invent the word; it's in common usage in feminist circles on the internet. Second, I hang around a lot of feminist sites and almost certainly speak to a lot more feminists than most of the people here do, about more subjects, and with greater depth. It's not arrogance; it's accepting the reality of my experience vs. yours.
There absolutely are very vocal, very radical feminists out there, but they make up a TINY minority of the feminists of the US and of the world.

edit: the site feministing.com is one of the biggest feminist blogs out there, and it's a good view of mainstream feminism. There are several bloggers and no one post is representative, but if you follow it for a little while you'll get a good look at how most 20-30something feminists think.



mds_02
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2011
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,077
Location: Los Angeles

21 Jul 2012, 3:45 am

LKL wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
LKL wrote:
This IS what feminism is about, to actual feminists (as opposed to the straw-feminists portrayed in popular culture).


You really like that word. Kinda clever too, I'll grant that. The only problem is that you're denying the existence of people some of us have actually met. This idea you seem to have, that all women who describe themselves as feminist have the same ideals as you or that those who do not are not "actual feminists," is simply false. Honestly, it comes off as a bit arrogant.

First, I didn't invent the word; it's in common usage in feminist circles on the internet. Second, I hang around a lot of feminist sites and almost certainly speak to a lot more feminists than most of the people here do, about more subjects, and with greater depth. It's not arrogance; it's accepting the reality of my experience vs. yours.
There absolutely are very vocal, very radical feminists out there, but they make up a TINY minority of the feminists of the US and of the world.

edit: the site feministing.com is one of the biggest feminist blogs out there, and it's a good view of mainstream feminism. There are several bloggers and no one post is representative, but if you follow it for a little while you'll get a good look at how most 20-30something feminists think.


You accept they exist. I thought based on my interpretation of your wording that you were denying that they exist. I'm glad I was mistaken.

And I do recognize that they are very much a minority. However, I believe that the overly simplistic belief in male privilege, which is common to most feminists and encouraged in most feminist ideology, is what fuels that minority.

I believe that that mistaken belief will prevent the feminist movement from recognizing when its goal of equality has been reached, cause it to overreach and, if left unchecked, will result in a simple reversal of positions from where we were years ago rather than resulting in equality. I believe this because I can see it already happening in small but significant ways.


_________________
If life's not beautiful without the pain, 
well I'd just rather never ever even see beauty again. 
Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer. 
And it feels pretty soft to me. 

Modest Mouse - The View


deltafunction
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jun 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,094
Location: Lost

21 Jul 2012, 6:02 am

nominalist wrote:
Zinia wrote:
I like that list. I was originally deterred by Masculism because of the Merriam Webster definition about superiority. But after reading the info on your list, I looked it up on Wikipedia, and I liked Wikipedia's article about Masculism and it's relationship to Feminism. I like how they have two words Masculism and Masculinism--Masculism being pro-equality like I view Feminism, and Mascuilinism being the more anti-female version.


I had a brief email correspondence with the guy who started something called masculinism (a kind of masculism). However, he seems to have dropped off the radar.


Oh gosh, I knew two men who were adamant about Masculinism/Masculism (not sure which). Neither were pleasant to women.

In fact, they were so unpleasant that I had stopped all contact with them. One was also a stalker, and ironically, banned from the women's group in university, for various reasons including him crashing their events with his Masculinism/Masculism dogma.



HereComesTheRain
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 179

21 Jul 2012, 10:12 pm

You can say that Masculism is the assertive form of Masculinism or Masculinism is the aggressive form of masculism. They both are under the same umbrella of the Men's Rights movement. The Men's rights movement family also includes the Men Going Their Own Way movement, a men's separatist movement.



HereComesTheRain
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 179

21 Jul 2012, 10:15 pm

Quote:
Oh gosh, I knew two men who were adamant about Masculinism/Masculism (not sure which). Neither were pleasant to women.

In fact, they were so unpleasant that I had stopped all contact with them. One was also a stalker, and ironically, banned from the women's group in university, for various reasons including him crashing their events with his Masculinism/Masculism dogma.


I'm a Masculist. I'm fine with women. I believe women should have equal responsibilities as well as equal rights. Which means I am at odds with most, if not all waves of feminism. In fact, I abhor feminism because most waves of feminism believe that women should have all the rights of men and all the privileges our society afforded to women in the past. Feminism and women aren't mutually inclusive, however.

As for calling the man a "stalker", I think that's probably just another instance of creep shaming.



Zinia
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 344

21 Jul 2012, 11:55 pm

HereComesTheRain wrote:
Quote:
Oh gosh, I knew two men who were adamant about Masculinism/Masculism (not sure which). Neither were pleasant to women.

In fact, they were so unpleasant that I had stopped all contact with them. One was also a stalker, and ironically, banned from the women's group in university, for various reasons including him crashing their events with his Masculinism/Masculism dogma.


I'm a Masculist. I'm fine with women. I believe women should have equal responsibilities as well as equal rights. Which means I am at odds with most, if not all waves of feminism. In fact, I abhor feminism because most waves of feminism believe that women should have all the rights of men and all the privileges our society afforded to women in the past. Feminism and women aren't mutually inclusive, however.

As for calling the man a "stalker", I think that's probably just another instance of creep shaming.


I don't think I would really agree with your type of Masculism. Women have always shared equal responsibility with men. I don't see anything wrong with women getting equal rights, and I've never heard of this "feminist" idea that women should get equal rights without equal responsibility. There are plenty of men out there that do not take care of their responsibilities, and I don't hear anyone suggesting that that gender's rights should be taken away because of them.



HereComesTheRain
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 179

22 Jul 2012, 12:49 am

Then you don't agree with equal sentencing for the same crime, parental termination rights for men and domestic violence charges/convictions which closer match the ratio of women to men who commit domestic violence?

That's what I believe in. Women get sentenced longer than men for the same crimes, have the ultimate say in parental responsibility and are charged with less than 10% of all DV cases, but make up only 50-60% of all domestic violence cases.



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

22 Jul 2012, 3:02 am

@HereComesTheRain

Where did you get the figure that women only make up 50-60% of domestic violence cases? From the research I've seen (I'll happily dig it out, if you want), women make up something more like 85% of DV victims. I do suspect that my figures are not accurate due to the stigma behind men reporting DV. I'd still like to see where you got 50-60% from, though.

Also, the problem with 'creep shaming' as an idea is that it can be used as an excuse for genuniely abusive behaviour: http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-04-11/the ... -total-bs/ . Despite the title of the piece, the author does admit that some men get accused of being creeps unfairly, but if this term catches on, it could be misused.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


deltafunction
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jun 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,094
Location: Lost

22 Jul 2012, 9:15 am

HereComesTheRain wrote:
Quote:
Oh gosh, I knew two men who were adamant about Masculinism/Masculism (not sure which). Neither were pleasant to women.

In fact, they were so unpleasant that I had stopped all contact with them. One was also a stalker, and ironically, banned from the women's group in university, for various reasons including him crashing their events with his Masculinism/Masculism dogma.


I'm a Masculist. I'm fine with women. I believe women should have equal responsibilities as well as equal rights. Which means I am at odds with most, if not all waves of feminism. In fact, I abhor feminism because most waves of feminism believe that women should have all the rights of men and all the privileges our society afforded to women in the past. Feminism and women aren't mutually inclusive, however.

As for calling the man a "stalker", I think that's probably just another instance of creep shaming.


Uh, no, he was actually stalking women, including women from the women/gay rights club. That was partly why he was banned. He has been in trouble with the police over some of the things he has done. How is it creep shaming?

By the way, I only stopped talking to the other man with Masculism beliefs because of his support for the male who was clearly treating women badly.



HereComesTheRain
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 179

22 Jul 2012, 11:22 am

puddingmouse wrote:
@HereComesTheRain

Where did you get the figure that women only make up 50-60% of domestic violence cases? From the research I've seen (I'll happily dig it out, if you want), women make up something more like 85% of DV victims. I do suspect that my figures are not accurate due to the stigma behind men reporting DV. I'd still like to see where you got 50-60% from, though.



I'm your huckleberry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/ ... c-violence

http://www.eworldwire.com/pressrelease/17670

Quote:
Also, the problem with 'creep shaming' as an idea is that it can be used as an excuse for genuniely abusive behaviour: http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-04-11/the ... -total-bs/ . Despite the title of the piece, the author does admit that some men get accused of being creeps unfairly, but if this term catches on, it could be misused.


I read the article, and much like most feminist blog postings, it's filled with ad hominem attacks. In short, she uses shaming tactics to disprove that feminists use shaming tactics. Wow. Just wow. And I thought religious fundamentalists were out there.



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

22 Jul 2012, 12:16 pm

HereComesTheRain wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
@HereComesTheRain

Where did you get the figure that women only make up 50-60% of domestic violence cases? From the research I've seen (I'll happily dig it out, if you want), women make up something more like 85% of DV victims. I do suspect that my figures are not accurate due to the stigma behind men reporting DV. I'd still like to see where you got 50-60% from, though.



I'm your huckleberry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/ ... c-violence

http://www.eworldwire.com/pressrelease/17670

Quote:
Also, the problem with 'creep shaming' as an idea is that it can be used as an excuse for genuniely abusive behaviour: http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-04-11/the ... -total-bs/ . Despite the title of the piece, the author does admit that some men get accused of being creeps unfairly, but if this term catches on, it could be misused.


I read the article, and much like most feminist blog postings, it's filled with ad hominem attacks. In short, she uses shaming tactics to disprove that feminists use shaming tactics. Wow. Just wow. And I thought religious fundamentalists were out there.


Thanks for the links. Domestic violence is clearly not a gender issue, though I the statistics do point to women being subject to more serious physical harm. I suspect that this is due to the imbalance of physical strength between the sexes.

You dodged my point about genuinely abusive behaviour in order to attack feminism. The matter of some guys being genuinely predatory was the main focus of her article. She never claims that the label is never used incorrectly.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

22 Jul 2012, 1:55 pm

mds_02 wrote:
LKL wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
LKL wrote:
This IS what feminism is about, to actual feminists (as opposed to the straw-feminists portrayed in popular culture).


You really like that word. Kinda clever too, I'll grant that. The only problem is that you're denying the existence of people some of us have actually met. This idea you seem to have, that all women who describe themselves as feminist have the same ideals as you or that those who do not are not "actual feminists," is simply false. Honestly, it comes off as a bit arrogant.

First, I didn't invent the word; it's in common usage in feminist circles on the internet. Second, I hang around a lot of feminist sites and almost certainly speak to a lot more feminists than most of the people here do, about more subjects, and with greater depth. It's not arrogance; it's accepting the reality of my experience vs. yours.
There absolutely are very vocal, very radical feminists out there, but they make up a TINY minority of the feminists of the US and of the world.

edit: the site feministing.com is one of the biggest feminist blogs out there, and it's a good view of mainstream feminism. There are several bloggers and no one post is representative, but if you follow it for a little while you'll get a good look at how most 20-30something feminists think.


You accept they exist. I thought based on my interpretation of your wording that you were denying that they exist. I'm glad I was mistaken.

And I do recognize that they are very much a minority. However, I believe that the overly simplistic belief in male privilege, which is common to most feminists and encouraged in most feminist ideology, is what fuels that minority.

In my encounters with them, I have come away with the impression that they are generally women who have been extremely abused by men with extremely patriarchal views: ogreish fathers who beat and belittled them, for example; they come across to me as having been so traumatized by the experience that they are incapable of looking at men without fear. You put a few women who barely escaped abusive fathers with their lives into a room with a few women who barely escaped abusive husbands or sociopathic brothers with their lives, and voila! A self-reinforcing group of radical feminists is born.

Quote:
I believe that that mistaken belief will prevent the feminist movement from recognizing when its goal of equality has been reached, cause it to overreach and, if left unchecked, will result in a simple reversal of positions from where we were years ago rather than resulting in equality. I believe this because I can see it already happening in small but significant ways.

There are small places where women have advantages, but it's usually in holdouts of the few priviledges that women had before the women's right's movement: the idea that women inherently make better parents, for example, which denies the profound, gut-deep attachment that good men also have to their children.
If you go hang out at feministing, though, I think you'll find that most feminists recognize that inequality is a burden in both directions.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

22 Jul 2012, 1:57 pm

HereComesTheRain wrote:
Quote:
Oh gosh, I knew two men who were adamant about Masculinism/Masculism (not sure which). Neither were pleasant to women.

In fact, they were so unpleasant that I had stopped all contact with them. One was also a stalker, and ironically, banned from the women's group in university, for various reasons including him crashing their events with his Masculinism/Masculism dogma.


I'm a Masculist. I'm fine with women. I believe women should have equal responsibilities as well as equal rights. Which means I am at odds with most, if not all waves of feminism. In fact, I abhor feminism because most waves of feminism believe that women should have all the rights of men and all the privileges our society afforded to women in the past. Feminism and women aren't mutually inclusive, however.

As for calling the man a "stalker", I think that's probably just another instance of creep shaming.

:roll:
Tell us some more {hands Here Comes The Rain a shovel}.
for a jaundiced look at the Men's Right's Movement' (by a man), go here:
http://manboobz.com/



HereComesTheRain
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 179

22 Jul 2012, 7:28 pm

I've read Fruitnnut-trelle's page. Much like other feminist blogs, it's one huge page dedicated to situational ad hominems against the other side.

Here's a page which debunks Fruitnnut-trelle.

http://men-factor.blogspot.com/2012/04/ ... llsht.html



HereComesTheRain
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 179

22 Jul 2012, 7:30 pm

http://feministsunited.proboards.com/

A good example of feminism gone wild.