Is Christianity nonsense?

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DC
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11 Sep 2012, 6:43 am

Tequila wrote:

piroflip wrote:

Or Irish priests raping 12 yo choir boys?

This didn't just happen in Ireland, although the sex abuse scandals were most talked about there but in many other countries too.

Case in point, look at Holland.

In the 1950's if a child dared talk about the fact a catholic priest was raping them, the child was castrated by the priest as punishment for his sinful homosexual thoughts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17453849

Nice bunch.

Tequila
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11 Sep 2012, 6:54 am

DC wrote:

Nice bunch.

Quite. Religious organisations like the Catholic Church are the very last people who should be lecturing anyone on morality. It's a sick, sick joke.

Giftorcurse
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11 Sep 2012, 8:12 am

I'm a Christian, but I prefer not to bash people over the head with it. I'm the kind of guy that tries to reconcile the Bible with what is known about the history of the planet. The Bible isn't a propaganda tool; it's a philosophical document, not that different from Nietzche. It's an alternative guide to living your life.

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Fnord
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11 Sep 2012, 9:56 am

Tequila wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

The North Korean government forces you to believe that there are no souls, no Gods or no afterlife. Cult of personas have nothing to do with religion. Atheism is the only form of spirituality that leaves room for megalomaniac leaders like Kim il-Sung or Josef Stalin.

Ever hear of Austro-Fascism? Both Portugal (1933–1974) and the Federal State of Austria (1934–1938) had strong ties with the Roman Catholic Church while under the rule of dictatorships. Theocratic dictatorships like Afghanistan under the Taliban were certainly not Atheistic, yet they were also murderously oppressive. Don't forget David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones and the Jonestown Massacre...

Even in Ireland, post-independence the Catholic Church consigned many thousands of people to abject misery. It's not quite in the league of murderous dictatorships but the church had more power than the government there for a long, long time.

The "Magadlene Asylums"...

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Initially the mission of the asylums was often to rehabilitate women back into society, but by the early 20th century the homes had become increasingly punitive and prison-like. In most of these asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labor, including laundry and needle work. They also endured a daily regime that included long periods of prayer and enforced silence. In Ireland, such asylums were known as Magdalene Laundries. It has been estimated that up to 30,000 women passed through such laundries in Ireland. The last Magdalene asylum, in Waterford, Ireland, closed on September 25, 1996.

Only the tip of the iceberg.

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Doctor
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11 Sep 2012, 10:17 am

piroflip wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

God would probably have been more concerned with teaching us about morality and other such things, as rationalism is much less precise.

Morality?

You mean like burning women alive as witches after torturing them with a hot iron to make them confess first?

Or Irish priests raping 12 yo choir boys?

Or the Magdalene homes where girls were imprisoned for years, even decades, and forced to work as slaves for the church?

I'm confused - if I understand your argument (which is never stated explicitly), it seems to go something like this:
If Christianity were true, then nobody who says they are Christian would ever do anything bad.
This argument seems to rely strongly on the premise that people are always telling the truth when they say they are Christian - a priest, for example, would never claim to follow the Bible so he can keep his job (and, in his case, stay out of prison), while actually living in a completely different way and having no intention of following the Bible. And indeed, that neither would a whole church just come up with whatever teachings are most popular at the time and wins it the most members and therefore income, regardless of what the Bible teaches.
Aren't these rather unrealistic assumptions on which to base an argument?
If you intend to argue about whether Christianity is right or wrong, hadn't you better do it on the basis of the Bible which is the basis of Christianity, not on what some church or individual has done?

piroflip wrote:

I rather think that the world is better off without religious morality.

Most people think the world would be better off without any other morality than their own. But proving it is another matter.

rpcarnell
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11 Sep 2012, 12:15 pm

The boy-rape problem is not confined to Ireland. It's happened in Panama, Bolivia, Mexico, the United States, Spain. Catholicism is obsessed with sex. No wonder why these people act like sexual perverts.

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Kurgan
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11 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm

Fnord wrote:

Ever hear of Austro-Fascism? Both Portugal (1933–1974) and the Federal State of Austria (1934–1938) had strong ties with the Roman Catholic Church while under the rule of dictatorships.

Diplomatic connections and strong ties are two different things. Cuba (an officially atheistic country until 1992) also has diplomatic connections to the catholic church.

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Theocratic dictatorships like Afghanistan under the Taliban were certainly not Atheistic, yet they were also murderously oppressive.

Correct. Allthough most of the stuff going on there would have happended without Islam. During the Soviet/Afghan war and under communist rule, more than two millions lost their lives. The fact that Afghanistan is still a living hell is because the very instant the country shows a slight improvement, somebody is always around the corner to attack.

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Don't forget David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, or Jim Jones and the Jonestown Massacre...

Don't forget that nobody has done more to actually stop the death penalty than the catholic church or funded space research more excessively. Since we're going into obscurantism here, don't forget the FARC guerilla, PKK, NPA or ETA.

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11 Sep 2012, 12:49 pm

rpcarnell wrote:

Catholicism is obsessed with sex. No wonder why these people act like sexual perverts.

Yet there is so little decent nun porn around. Must be something wrong with them.

rpcarnell
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11 Sep 2012, 1:46 pm

Actually there's a movie called Nude Nuns with Guns (j/k)

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rpcarnell
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11 Sep 2012, 1:50 pm

Faith is a perfect example of human megalomania. It is the belief that if you believe in something strongly without supporting evidence, that which you believe in will become true. The concept of faith can only be backed up with the assumption that the mind is omnipotent, capable of creating anything you believe in.

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Kurgan
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11 Sep 2012, 2:37 pm

rpcarnell wrote:

There's no "proof" of the big bang, macroevolution or the fusion process in the stars either. That doesn't mean it's wrong.

AspieOtaku
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11 Sep 2012, 3:44 pm

I used to be a creationist as a young child until I came across my first science book at the age of 6 now I know what is true and what is not. It is funny when facts over right beliefs like the example of how nervous the creationist got sitting next to richard dawkins.

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11 Sep 2012, 4:00 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

I find mr. Dawkins' fallacies even funnier.

Oodain
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11 Sep 2012, 4:02 pm

Kurgan wrote:

rpcarnell wrote:

There's no "proof" of the big bang, macroevolution or the fusion process in the stars either. That doesn't mean it's wrong.

please elaborate on this,

for one, fusion is a well known process, done by amateurs in their garages in some cases.

there is very strong evidence for the big bang theory since you also have the deep background radiation pictures.

macroevolution is a bit trickier but the distinction is so vastly flawed to begin with that it doesnt rellay say much, want to observe evolution, watch some resistance studies, clearly defined evolution in a week, from there macroevolution would be the natural conclusion over longer time periods.

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Kurgan
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11 Sep 2012, 4:08 pm

Oodain wrote:

for one, fusion is a well known process, done by amateurs in their garages in some cases.

Yes, but there's no direct proof that the stars do this. One can look at what's around us and say that it's likely to be created by fusion and thus by the stars and the supernovas, but it can't be proven directly.

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there is very strong evidence for the big bang theory since you also have the deep background radiation pictures.

That's an argument for an not a proof.

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macroevolution is a bit trickier but the distinction is so vastly flawed to begin with that it doesnt rellay say much, want to observe evolution, watch some resistance studies, clearly defined evolution in a week, from there macroevolution would be the natural conclusion over longer time periods.

It's no more flawed than the distinction between macro- and microeconomics.

Oodain
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11 Sep 2012, 4:24 pm

neutrinos from the sun is proof of fusion, look it up before answering.

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Some galaxies appear to be moving away from us at speeds proportional to their distance. This is called "Hubble's Law," named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who discovered this phenomenon in 1929. This observation supports the expansion of the universe and suggests that the universe was once compacted.

The initial, very hot state that followed the Big Bang should have left some remnant of its heat. In 1965, Radioastronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin (-454.765 degree Fahrenheit, -270.425 degree Celsius) Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB) which pervades the observable universe. This is thought to be the remnant which scientists were looking for. Penzias and Wilson shared in the 1978 Nobel Prize for Physics for their discovery.

i dont know if you understand what a scientific theory actually means or if you are just being facetious, perhaps you should try explaining "proof"?

but yes it is an argument, but a so massive argument that frankly i dont think there are any alternatives that could explain it nearly as well.

please create a breakdown of why the distinction isnt flawed, furthermore how anyone could compare it to micro and macroeconomics and expect to actually make sense iss beyond me,
one is a measurable and witnessed effect of the laws of physics over time and the other an abstract system created to facilitate trade, one that is alrgely arbitrary, there are plenty of alternatives to almost every qustion asked.

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