Pat Condell: "A word to rioting Muslims"
thomas81
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I think most people on the left don't hero-worship Islam, they just stick their heads in the sand about its increasing influence and radicalisation. They don't mean to be apologists, but they are.
Also, .
What the right don't understand is that if they genuinely want to stop islamic radicalisation, the only way to do this effectively is to pressurise the government into not doing things that are provoking it in the first place.
Invading Afghanistan, or giving political and economic backing to Israel is only throwing petrol on the fire.
The left ignore islamic radicalisation because its a symptom, not the root of the disease.
I think most people on the left don't hero-worship Islam, they just stick their heads in the sand about its increasing influence and radicalisation. They don't mean to be apologists, but they are.
Also, .
What the right don't understand is that if they genuinely want to stop islamic radicalisation, the only way to do this effectively is to pressurise the government into not doing things that are provoking it in the first place.
Invading Afghanistan, or giving political and economic backing to Israel is only throwing petrol on the fire.
The left ignore islamic radicalisation because its a symptom, not the root of the disease.
Honestly, the radicalism is partly rooted in Islam itself. All religions are not created equally.
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I think most people on the left don't hero-worship Islam, they just stick their heads in the sand about its increasing influence and radicalisation. They don't mean to be apologists, but they are.
Also, .
What the right don't understand is that if they genuinely want to stop islamic radicalisation, the only way to do this effectively is to pressurise the government into not doing things that are provoking it in the first place.
Invading Afghanistan, or giving political and economic backing to Israel is only throwing petrol on the fire.
The left ignore islamic radicalisation because its a symptom, not the root of the disease.
Although I consider the "left/right" distinction especially unproductive (I live in a country with a multi-party system) I still believe the statement above missed the mark.
The assumption that radical Islam is somehow a response to actions taken by the West and Israel simply does not hold if you examine the actual Islamic texts (the Qu'ran and Sunnah). It *is* Islam.
Example: It is hard to accept that the policy of Hamas is due to a provocation from Israel when they cite Sahih Bukhari in their charter. By estimation, this was written in the year 846. Last time I checked, this work pre-dates the Balfour declaration by more than a thousand years.
In other words, it is not just a symptom.
I really, really do wish that people would look at the likes of MEMRI-TV once in a while. If they did, they'd see that it's not just about political criticism of the State of Israel, it's about Jews. You only have to see the endless holocaust denial cartoons, the endless caricatures of Israelis as Nazis (a slanderous allegation if ever there was one) and the endless Jew-hatred that pickles the Middle East. It's not about Israel, it's about Jews.
From the Hamas charter:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after.
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Article Seventeen:
The Muslim woman has a role no less important than that of the Muslim man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.
Article Twenty:
In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder.
Article Twenty-Two:
For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).
The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.
"O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118).
It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah's words "if ye understand."
Article Twenty-Eight:
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Muslim brethren in Palestine.
As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.
We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. "May the cowards never sleep."
Article Thirty-Two:
World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.
The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another.
Re symptom - unfortunately (for any number of reasons) we don't have an easily observed other world where all else is the same except that the West never meddled in the middle east.
Where people feel a political grievance, they will try to back it up with what they can, they will look to some text of old to back them up and guide them. And within that, there will be clerics exploiting the situation - that's certainly nothing exclusive to Islam, though.
Regarding Israel, how many atheist Jews act as though it is indeed a God-given land? On a side note, the team up between Zionists and End-timers has been fascinating, and very worrying.
Even taking the past century, to suppose that Western political and economic and military interference in the middle east has had no bearing on how those living there view the West seems absurd to me.
As to Condell himself, he is neither insightful nor eloquent, or even funny - as I understand, the man is meant to be a comedian. I'm not sure why he has the following he does. Well, I am, but you know what I mean.
No-one is claiming that.
Also, whether Muslims hate the West or not is beside the point. There's enough human rights abuses within their own ranks for me to decry the religion.
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They happen almost every day - that's the point. Muslims are most at risk from Islam. If they're not killing, beating and intimidating Jews, Christians, Buddhists, women, gays and anyone who opposes their hateful ideology, they're killing people who question Islam, people who belong to a different sect, people who fall in love with someone from a different sect, viciously beating women who speak their minds or want even the most utterly basic autonomy in life at all (like the sort of clothes they wear).
If you in any way support humanity, you have to oppose Islam. It's the most barbaric religion on the planet. I'm not saying this to be dramatic and it's true that not all Muslims are the same (not all Muslims are as utterly homophobic as the ones in Britain, for instance, who have largely come from the most backward of regions - French Muslims are far, far less condemnatory of homosexuality), but the hateful and murder-inciting Quran and Hadiths are at the root of it.
It's the book that's the problem, not necessarily the people who adhere to the book. There are lots of Muslims, who, even if they aren't necessarily open about their disagreement with much of Islam (for safety reasons, mainly) reject much of what is written in there because, fundamentally, they are human beings and they realise that the commands of the Quran and Hadiths are utterly inhumane.
If you think child rape is wrong, you disagree with Muhammad. You disagree with the word of Allah.
It's like Nazi Germany in a way - not all or probably even most NSDAP members were virulent Nazis, but they had so many followers that, essentially, the fanatical element drove the followers (and dissent is utterly outlawed and punishable by death or imprisonment in some cases). It's the same with Islam - freedom of thought is violently, viciously and brutally subdued because of the utter fear that the religion and the behaviour of its followers inspires. To put it another way: I have the utmost respect for anyone who wishes to criticise or leave Islam. They have more courage than I ever, ever will.
I think most people on the left don't hero-worship Islam, they just stick their heads in the sand about its increasing influence and radicalisation. They don't mean to be apologists, but they are.
Also, .
What the right don't understand is that if they genuinely want to stop islamic radicalisation, the only way to do this effectively is to pressurise the government into not doing things that are provoking it in the first place.
Invading Afghanistan, or giving political and economic backing to Israel is only throwing petrol on the fire.
The left ignore islamic radicalisation because its a symptom, not the root of the disease.
Honestly, the radicalism is partly rooted in Islam itself. All religions are not created equally.
It's pretty stupid to totally dismiss causes rooted in the religion itself and it's own imperial history. If western meddling was the only cause of terrorism you'd think we'd see a lot more terrorism coming from other people that have been trampled on. I admit that western policy has inflamed the situation and made it much worse and the notion that you can fight religious fundamentalism with guns and bombs is pure folly. I just don't think you can flat-out blame the West entirely for the current problem of radicalization within Islam. I mean, empires have risen and fallen for most of human history and when empires decline the sense of injured pride often causes a backward rather than forward looking culture. It's the same kind of thing we're seeing in the US with the Tea Party and a resurgent conservatism, only on a much broader scale.
As much as I want to be tolerant of anyone's beliefs, when their beliefs oppress (or even KILL) others that is going too far (in my opinion). It's bad enough when a religion suppresses criticism of itself from within its ranks, but to try to kill outsiders who express negative opinions of it...wow. All I can say is they must be really insecure in their faith even if they think that means they are strong in their faith.
Of my 750 or so posts on WP, probably 500 or more have to do addressing evolution deniers. A bit off topic considering the human rights issues of this thread that I agree are more important, but outside of the USA the biggest evolution deniers of the planet are fundamentalist Muslims. In particular there's one nutjob in Turkey with very deep pockets who publishes beautiful huge books of color glossy photographs that purport to show problems with Darwinian evolution, when of course all it really does is spew the same falsehoods as Christian fundamentalists who deny evolution happens. It seems the powers that be want to keep the masses ignorant in order to more easily control them perhaps? or maybe some people are insane?
Rant over. I do not mean to hijack this thread. I am just adding my input as to yet another way some fundamentalist extremists make Islam go against values of truth and decent behavior towards fellow human beings. Many Muslims can read the Koran and NOT be a-holes about what it says for them to do. The problem with Islam as it is with some denominations of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and God knows how many other religions is mainly from fundamentalist extremists, not from those who can read things symbolically. The whole principle of fundamentalism is a bigger problem worldwide than any one particular religion.
This is mainly because humans use language to communicate, words and stuff, and there are inherent weaknesses in that means of communication such as context, definitions, size of one's vocabulary, being intelligent enough to understand metaphor, etc. Basically words are like a finger pointing at the moon, but are not the moon itself. Too many people mistake the map for the territory. They do not understand that words are symbols, and that the grammar of the language one thinks in has built in assumptions about the nature of reality that can unconsciously shape one's world view. I know the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis of linguistics is discredited, at least in its more extreme forms, but there is something to the basic idea that makes some sense to me.
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Last edited by TheBicyclingGuitarist on 23 Sep 2012, 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There's a variety of issues here. My point, if I have one [enter snide remark here], is that all this is complex. Unless you're just getting off on the RANT RANT RANT of it, it's far better to engage meaningfully with the questions and problems in a manner likely to bring about solutions. (Note: 'Kill/deport them all' does not count as a solution).
You could assume all Muslims are a write off - simultaneously mindless drones and intentionally bad - or you could assume they are human beings in a nexus of social and political relations, with a history and sociology and culture and so on. That, as with all humans, who they are and how they are treated, how they perceive themselves, will affect what they believe and with what intensity. Well, unless you believe in memes, and good luck with that.
If there's one thing guaranteed to make a group pull closer together, toward a 'extreme' version of their identity, and be more denouncing of self-criticism/reflection, it's outsiders threatening them. There are many people within Islam trying to bring about change. Before these people would have been done away with the approval of Western powers, because often their questioning of Islam-as-practised came with a socio-economic critique that threatened Western interests, too. Nowadays, where expedient, they will find themselves held close (and aloft) by the self-same Western powers who are also bombing and vilifying the people the critical Muslim was trying to engage with. I believe in diplomatic circles this is referred to as the "why are you hitting yourself?" route.
"We're invading and occupying and shooting and bombing you for your freedom and democracy. Now, don't think of getting angry when we kill your child - I mean, c'mon, it's just collateral damage - or you'll end up in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay, if we decide to take you alive. Now, step away whilst we write into your constitution some radically 'free market' measures that will let us buy up your natural resources cheap."
I don't think it is helpful - to say the least - to approach any religious belief with all the tact and deftness of a twelve year old who's drunk on the power of his first piece of critical thinking and approaches a Nun with, 'You believe in sky fairies?. Are you a stupid thicko or something? Science has proved there's no God and everything! Snort'.
I also liked this:
This courtesy issue comes in when you see, for example, things like the “Draw a Muhammad Day” that was on Facebook. Loads of people were involved with that—and you’ve got your hard Islamophobes, your hard racists who were around things like the “Ground Zero mosque”—but this “Draw a Muhammad Day” involved an enormous number of people who were not hard racists. A lot of liberals and civil libertarians were involved in this. Obviously if you’re a socialist you have an analysis of Muslims being particularly the target of racism at the moment and it being a sort of political exigency to stand alongside of them. But even if you strip that out, and you take it on its own terms—the terms of that kind of attack—they’re still like, “Oh these people are trying to stop us from drawing Muhammad.” My response is kind of like, “Were you doing a lot of drawing Muhammad? Has this really f****d with your day?”
I don’t want to suggest that it should be illegal to draw Muhammad, but I do think it’s reasonable to act like a civilized person and say—everything else being equal—if you don’t have an urgent need to do something which is going to unnecessarily offend your neighbor, why do it? Again, that’s not my primary political motivation, but I think it’s a baseline kind of decency that’s missing from the debate.
Last edited by Hopper on 22 Sep 2012, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This courtesy issue comes in when you see, for example, things like the “Draw a Muhammad Day” that was on Facebook. Loads of people were involved with that—and you’ve got your hard Islamophobes, your hard racists who were around things like the “Ground Zero mosque”—but this “Draw a Muhammad Day” involved an enormous number of people who were not hard racists. A lot of liberals and civil libertarians were involved in this. Obviously if you’re a socialist you have an analysis of Muslims being particularly the target of racism at the moment and it being a sort of political exigency to stand alongside of them. But even if you strip that out, and you take it on its own terms—the terms of that kind of attack—they’re still like, “Oh these people are trying to stop us from drawing Muhammad.” My response is kind of like, “Were you doing a lot of drawing Muhammad? Has this really f**** with your day?”
I don’t want to suggest that it should be illegal to draw Muhammad, but I do think it’s reasonable to act like a civilized person and say—everything else being equal—if you don’t have an urgent need to do something which is going to unnecessarily offend your neighbor, why do it? Again, that’s not my primary political motivation, but I think it’s a baseline kind of decency that’s missing from the debate.
I think the situation is a bit different in the US as opposed to Britain and Europe. Here the vast majority of Muslims are not poor or ghettoized. Their overall economic status is on par with the rest of society. I think as a consequence of this there are fewer extremists here than there are in the UK. Strangely a lot of "jihadis" here in the US turn out to be western converts rather than immigrants from Muslim countries. Racism and hatred towards Arabs and Muslims didn't really begin until after Sept 11 here.
thomas81
Veteran
Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland
I think most people on the left don't hero-worship Islam, they just stick their heads in the sand about its increasing influence and radicalisation. They don't mean to be apologists, but they are.
Also, .
What the right don't understand is that if they genuinely want to stop islamic radicalisation, the only way to do this effectively is to pressurise the government into not doing things that are provoking it in the first place.
Invading Afghanistan, or giving political and economic backing to Israel is only throwing petrol on the fire.
The left ignore islamic radicalisation because its a symptom, not the root of the disease.
Honestly, the radicalism is partly rooted in Islam itself. All religions are not created equally.
The west for the most part, didn't start incurring problems with Islam until we encroached on their territory.
I think most people on the left don't hero-worship Islam, they just stick their heads in the sand about its increasing influence and radicalisation. They don't mean to be apologists, but they are.
Also, .
What the right don't understand is that if they genuinely want to stop islamic radicalisation, the only way to do this effectively is to pressurise the government into not doing things that are provoking it in the first place.
Invading Afghanistan, or giving political and economic backing to Israel is only throwing petrol on the fire.
The left ignore islamic radicalisation because its a symptom, not the root of the disease.
Honestly, the radicalism is partly rooted in Islam itself. All religions are not created equally.
The west for the most part, didn't start incurring problems with Islam until we encroached on their territory.
As I've already said, my concern is not mainly with the West but with the humanity as a whole.
_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.
thomas81
Veteran
Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland
As I've already said, my concern is not mainly with the West but with the humanity as a whole.
Has any other sphere of influence, with the possible exception of India, other than the west at any point in history, attracted islamic animosity to the point of violence?
I really don't think Al Quaeda has much of an axe to grind beyond US/EU/Israel.