Is there anything to "Men's Rights" groups?

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Fnord
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23 Feb 2013, 8:34 pm

Tax Court and Divorce Court are the two court systems in the US where a man is presumed guilty until proven innocent, even if he is the plaintiff in the case.



ArrantPariah
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27 Feb 2013, 10:50 am

mercifullyfree wrote:
Annie Sprinkle off the top of my head. And....


Well, I looked up some of her work. She goes back several decades. Didn't really do much for me. But, anyway, can a female porn star who is pro-sex also be considered a "Feminist?" Or, maybe just not a "Feminazi?"

Proper feminists seem to be violently opposed to the male sex drive.

For example: http://www.dianarussell.com/f/Feminists ... _Flynt.pdf

Also,

Gloria Steinem wrote:
Larry Flynt is the Goebbels of the war against women



DerStadtschutz
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27 Feb 2013, 8:29 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
According to the original article

Quote:
MRAs often favor policies as regressive as re-legalizing martial rape, preventing women from going into higher education, and with some going so far as to want to abolish female suffrage entirely (yes really) lest it interfere with women’s societal priorities as baby makers.


I doubt that many "MRAs" go that far, and those that do shouldn't be taken seriously.

"Re-legalize martial rape?" Let marauding soldiers rape whom they will? I don't think that anyone could seriously be advocating this. We'd much rather our soldiers be orderly and disciplined--not raping willy-nilly like they did in Vietnam.


A soldier's job is to kill people. It doesn't get much more disorderly than that.



puddingmouse
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27 Feb 2013, 8:41 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:

Well, some of them don't want us to watch pornography.....


I don't agree with that, but that's still not the same as being anti-masturbation. Porn isn't necessary for it. Nice, but not necessary.


Well, they say that the gents tend to be more stimulated by visual representations. The ladies less so.


I'm pretty much as 'visual' as most men, I think. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I like looking at women having sex. I still think the porn industry is morally questionable, though- so I only look at amateur stuff.



ArrantPariah
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27 Feb 2013, 9:16 pm

Hey! I like the Lesbian amateurs, too! 8)



ArrantPariah
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03 Mar 2013, 10:00 am

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:

Well, some of them don't want us to watch pornography.....


I don't agree with that, but that's still not the same as being anti-masturbation. Porn isn't necessary for it. Nice, but not necessary.


Well, well, well.....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverchian ... rket-size/

Quote:
Trojan: US Market Size For Vibrators $1 Billion, Twice The Condom Market Size

....The company estimates the market for vibrators in the US to be $1 billion, while the market for condoms is only around $450 million. Trojan wants a piece of that vibrator pie.....

....Trojan VP of marketing Jim Daniels told me that vibrators “are already mainstream.” He cited a recent survey conducted by the Center for Sexual Health Promotion at Indiana University, funded by Trojan, of thousands of adults in the US, which concluded that around half of American women have used a vibrator....

....Daniels told me that Walgreens has been selling a Trojan vibrating ring on its shelves since 2006 (except in the seven states where it is illegal to do so).....

The Vibrating Twister will come out soon and retail for $60. Daniels says that Trojan currently has 2% of the billion-dollar vibrator market, but wants to grow that number this year....


Gee, I wonder in what part of the USA it is illegal for a woman to buy a vibrator? :roll: More than likely, these seven states are all members of the former Confederacy. :shameonyou:

Anyway, the anti-sex branch of mainstream Feminism seems to have been very successful, given that the market for vibrators is more than double the market for condoms. They must be very proud of themselves. But, they are also very coy. Not even one article about vibrators or masturbation on the NOW website. Like Baptist who don't recognize each other at the liquor store, Feminists must not recognize each other when they go to the vibrator store.



mercifullyfree
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03 Mar 2013, 12:29 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Anyway, the anti-sex branch of mainstream Feminism seems to have been very successful, given that the market for vibrators is more than double the market for condoms. They must be very proud of themselves. But, they are also very coy. Not even one article about vibrators or masturbation on the NOW website. Like Baptist who don't recognize each other at the liquor store, Feminists must not recognize each other when they go to the vibrator store.


I am not following your logic AT ALL. The huge market for vibrators only shows that women... are masturbating. A lot. Like men do. What does this have to do with your "feminists are anti-sex" theories?



mercifullyfree
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03 Mar 2013, 12:32 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Proper feminists seem to be violently opposed to the male sex drive.


There aren't "proper" feminists. There are feminists who have different philosophies and disagree on some issues, aside from the one crucial belief that we should have equal legal and political rights as men. The sex and porn debate is all open to debate amongst feminists.



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03 Mar 2013, 12:47 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Anyway, the anti-sex branch of mainstream Feminism seems to have been very successful, given that the market for vibrators is more than double the market for condoms. They must be very proud of themselves. But, they are also very coy. Not even one article about vibrators or masturbation on the NOW website. Like Baptist who don't recognize each other at the liquor store, Feminists must not recognize each other when they go to the vibrator store.


I am not following your logic AT ALL. The huge market for vibrators only shows that women... are masturbating. A lot. Like men do. What does this have to do with your "feminists are anti-sex" theories?


I think that it displays a level of hypocrisy. Mainstream Feminists don't want us to watch pornography, because pornography sexually objectifies women, and we shouldn't be masturbating to images of women, and blah blah blah.

But, women are MORE than satisfying their own cravings with vibrators. To the point where vibrator sales are more than double condom sales.

One vibrator might last a few years, if it is a good quality. Condoms are generally only good for one round of coitus. Still, vibrator sales are way ahead of condom sales. Which suggests that ladies are more interested in pleasuring themselves than in getting intimately involved with a man.

If the ladies had a higher interest in coitus with men than in self pleasure, then condom sales should be higher relative to vibrator sales.



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03 Mar 2013, 1:00 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Proper feminists seem to be violently opposed to the male sex drive.


There aren't "proper" feminists. There are feminists who have different philosophies and disagree on some issues, aside from the one crucial belief that we should have equal legal and political rights as men. The sex and porn debate is all open to debate amongst feminists.


Are there Feminists who do not genuflect to Gloria Steinem?

Miss Steinem wrote:
A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

Any woman who chooses to behave like a full human being should be warned that the armies of the status quo will treat her as something of a dirty joke.

We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters.

We are becoming the men we wanted to marry.

We are the women our parents warned us against, and we are proud.

A woman reading Playboy feels a little like a Jew reading a Nazi manual.

Women have two choices: Either she's a feminist or a masochist.

Having someone who looks like us but thinks like them is worse than having no one at all.

Don't think about making women fit the world -- think about making the world fit women.


If Gloria Steinem says something, then is it really open to debate?



mercifullyfree
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03 Mar 2013, 1:03 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
I think that it displays a level of hypocrisy. Mainstream Feminists don't want us to watch pornography, because pornography sexually objectifies women, and we shouldn't be masturbating to images of women, and blah blah blah.

But, women are MORE than satisfying their own cravings with vibrators. To the point where vibrator sales are more than double condom sales.


It's only hypocrisy if someone claims to oppose all masturbation, yet vigorously engages in such activity in private. Someone can dislike the pornography industry, but not oppose masturbation. Can you realize that the women who actually are outspoken and active against pornography don't speak for all feminists or all women? They're actually probably a slim minority.

Quote:
One vibrator might last a few years, if it is a good quality. Condoms are generally only good for one round of coitus. Still, vibrator sales are way ahead of condom sales. Which suggests that ladies are more interested in pleasuring themselves than in getting intimately involved with a man.

If the ladies had a higher interest in coitus with men than in self pleasure, then condom sales should be higher relative to vibrator sales.


Condoms are only one form of birth control. We also use pills, shots, and other methods. Also, enjoying a little w*k on your own doesn't exclude being interested in sex with someone else when the right person and opportunity comes along. Do you assume a guy isn't interested in sex with anyone just because he's buying lotion and tissues?

Oh, another thing - Men buy vibrators and dildos to w*k with as well. :P



mercifullyfree
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03 Mar 2013, 1:13 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Are there Feminists who do not genuflect to Gloria Steinem?


If Gloria Steinem says something, then is it really open to debate?


Yes. Steinem is pretty old school and there have been different "waves" of feminism with differing philosophies.

By the way, I don't know if you're doing it on purpose, but it's becoming a little irritating that you continuously post as if women and feminists form some sort of hivemind. When presented with evidence that feminists and women are not all in agreement, instead of adjusting your view to think of them as individuals with varying beliefs, you sweep some away as not counting (not "proper" feminists) and claim it's "hypocrisy." Ignorance is an excuse to some extent, but you seem to be actively clinging to a specific narrative in your head at the expense of additional information. Why are you doing that and what point are you trying to make?



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03 Mar 2013, 1:41 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
If Gloria Steinem says something, then is it really open to debate?

Well, *I'm* not going to debate *this*:

Infallible Gloria Steinem wrote:
These poor women in academia have to talk this silly language that nobody can understand in order to be accepted, they think. If I read the word "problematize" one more time, I'm going to vomit. If I hear people talking about "feminist praxis"--I mean, it's practice, say practice.

Source: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1995/11/gloria

I guess the vanguards of kyriarchy, male privilege, entitlement and [Insert faddish label here] have a loyalty problem... Sound the alarm!

... And I wasn't even quoting the part where Gloria Steinem called academic feminist writing "gobbledygook"....



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03 Mar 2013, 1:48 pm

But, Miss Steinem is the MOTHER of feminism!! !! How can she object to Feminist gobbledygook?



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03 Mar 2013, 3:17 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
It's only hypocrisy if someone claims to oppose all masturbation, yet vigorously engages in such activity in private.


I would consider a woman who advocated against male masturbation, and who vigorously masturbated in private, to be a hypocrite.

mercifullyfree wrote:
Someone can dislike the pornography industry, but not oppose masturbation.


Pornography is central to the male masturbation experience. For many women, a trashy romance novel may already be sufficient.

mercifullyfree wrote:
Can you realize that the women who actually are outspoken and active against pornography don't speak for all feminists or all women? They're actually probably a slim minority.


I realize that, when speaking in general terms, there are always exceptions. One sometimes has to be careful how one phrases things. You are probably better situated than I am to venture a guess as to how prominent anti-pornography sentiments prevail amongst Feminists. Do you have anything to back up your estimation that they represent a slim minority? They may be a slim minority, but we certainly hear from them.

Quote:
Do you assume a guy isn't interested in sex with anyone just because he's buying lotion and tissues?

That he wasn't getting any might be a fair assumption, as opposed to the gent who was stocking up on condoms.

Quote:
Oh, another thing - Men buy vibrators and dildos to w*k with as well. :P

One learns something new every day. But, I suspect that it is primarily women who are buying these things.



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03 Mar 2013, 3:24 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
Yes. Steinem is pretty old school and there have been different "waves" of feminism with differing philosophies.


I confess that I haven't kept up with these in the least.

mercifullyfree wrote:
By the way, I don't know if you're doing it on purpose, but it's becoming a little irritating that you continuously post as if women and feminists form some sort of hivemind. When presented with evidence that feminists and women are not all in agreement, instead of adjusting your view to think of them as individuals with varying beliefs, you sweep some away as not counting (not "proper" feminists) and claim it's "hypocrisy." Ignorance is an excuse to some extent, but you seem to be actively clinging to a specific narrative in your head at the expense of additional information. Why are you doing that and what point are you trying to make?


I don't know what the various waves are, how many adherents each wave encompasses, nor to what specific ideology each wave adheres.

How do you describe the Gloria Steinem Feminists? "Classical" Feminists? "Proper" Feminists? "Old School" Feminists?

Is there some set of core beliefs on which the majority of Feminists agree? For example, are Feminists in general agreement that Patriarchy and Kyriarchy are bad?