11 Dec 2013, 6:45 am
LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
You are much older than me, so you've had much more time to change your lifestyle. However, what we do is irrelevant as debates are about our points, not us. You are also apparently a libertarian, I do not subscribe to libertarian philosophy, especially when I believe an catastrophe can be avoided.
actually, I've been a vegetarian (with occasional brief lapses) since 1995. Also, I'm a socialist.
Hey, you still would have been older than me. I've been vegetarian sense I've been born with daily lapses. I guess I must be RADICALLY socialist.
I guess I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. What was your point, exactly?
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And you don't find just leaving someone to die when you can easily save them to be morally evil?
Applying my health care talents to helping someone is a far cry from forcing me to donate part of my body to them.
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I don't think it would be as bad as slavery as slavery is control over one's labors and efforts and time, not just their tissues.
What, you don't think that the surgery to cut someone's kidney/liver out, and then to recover from that, counts as time and effort? You don't think that pregnancy counts as time and effort? Not to mention a pretty significant amount of pain and suffering.
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Pregnancy isn't control over a woman's body, that's the natural process of things
Yeah, actually it is. The zef takes over a woman's body pretty damn effectively.
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Rather, abortion is violates the fetuses rights over it's own body AND it's life.
Even a born human does not have the right to use another person's body without their permission, much less an unformed zef. If someone were to try to take my liver without my permission, I would be well within my rights to kill them, no matter how much they needed it.
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The difference between cutting open a guy to take out his liver and NOT cutting open a woman to take out a fetus is pretty f***ing obvious.
Abortion, unlike c-sections, do not require 'cutting a woman open.' That's part of why it's safer.
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I don't think abortions should just be handed out on the whim.
Baka. Do you really f***ing think that women do this casually? It's surgery. From what I hear, it really f***ing hurts. I've heard that in some cultures abortion is used as the primary means of birth control, but I have to think that it's pure ignorance and/or the lack of availability of other forms of birth control that make it so, because swallowing a pill every day must hurt a hell of a lot less.
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Um, most abortions occur after 6 weeks. By then it looks like this {snip pic}
That pic is a little bit advanced, actually, wikipedia notwithstanding.
http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/i ... ent#Week_6
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It's clearly organized, it even has proto-toes. Even a morula is more organized than it appears as the cells are loosly organized based on what they are going to ultimately develop into.
The level of 'organization' present at that stage is negligible, despite the appearance of 'toes' (no, they're not actually toes, even at 8 weeks).
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Oh, you dissected brains, good for you, tell, how do you know what it's feeling with so much brain? You literally can't determine sentience for anything, it's a philosophical dilemma.
It's impossible to determine with precision, but it's quite possible to have a fair degree of accuracy. We can look at neurological organization and compare it to the complexity of animal behavior as brains get more and more complex; like I said, a zef isn't even at the level of a fish until the 3rd trimester. EEGs corroborate this conclusion. Things just aren't connected up enough until then.
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It's like killing a guy while he is unconscious during surgery because you got tired of performing the operation. He isn't aware at the moment, but he certainly would have been shortly if you didn't freaking kill him.
No, it's like killing an unconscious guy who's physically hooked up to your body and preventing you from living your life, and will be stuck on you for 9 months.
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Let me phrase it this way: it doesn't matter if you a carry a backpack or an iron ball if you are going to use it to justify killing a baby.
It's not a f***ing "baby." It's a non-sentient, non-sapient zef, using your body without your permission.
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(And pregnancy is not a punishment, stop living in that mindset. Just because you don't like something and you have to live with it doesn't mean it's a punishment. By your logic it magically stops being a punishment and becomes a choice once the baby is born.
It stops being a punishment when and if the woman in question starts wanting it. Once it's born, she can hand it over to CPS or to an adoption agency, and do her best to forget about it, if she doesn't want it.
Pregnancy is one of the greatest gifts that one person can give to another, but without it being a gift given to that person by choice, it becomes a theft of the greatest magnitude instead. It's not a walk in the park.
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And I say if there is no complications you might as well go through with the 9 months. It's a life experience.
It's a miserable grueling experience that saps your body so seriously that it literally takes years to recover, and may never be recovered from completely. It's not unusual for women to have permanent physiological damage from pregnancy and childbirth, and I'm not talking about stretch marks or other cosmetic issues.
Funny how pro-life people always end up minimizing the experience of pregnancy and childbirth, every single goddamn thread we go through.
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People are dying for lack of livers, bone marrow, and kidneys every day; why don't we forcibly establish a donor registry that every citizen must participate in, and take one kidney, some marrow, and a third of a liver from everyone, so that those who need kidneys, marrow, or livers to survive don't die on the waiting list? It would save hundreds or thousands of lives every year, and very few people would die in the donation process or suffer from any long-term harm. Hell, why not mandate biannual blood donations from everyone who is an acceptable donor?
I think that would be a great idea.
Anyway, the key difference is this clause: "only a single person is a viable donor".Ever heard of tissue typing? You can't just take a liver from any random person and stick it into a person. That's part of why waiting for an organ takes so long. Right now, there might be someone out there who you're the only perfect tissue match for, and who will die if you don't happen to liquefy your brain in a motorcycle accident in the next moth or so.
To be clear, I'm a registered organ donor, but it only happens once I'm brain-dead and have no interest in using the parts any more.
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And what makes you the arbitor of who and who is not a person? That's why your personal views don't matter, mine don't either.
Democracy.
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Oh, and what's with the term zef, where did that come from? It sounds like a racial slur. Hey, you were a zef once too!
Zygote/Embryo/Fetus. Accounts for the entire span of development from fertilization through birth. If you're not one of those, "it's a person from fertilization!" people, then the relevant term would be 'ef.'
I wouldn't exactly say that I was a zef once, any more than I would say that I was an ovum and/or a spermatozoan once; rather, there once existed a zef which eventually became me.
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Breathing is the normal state of a healthy mammal.
Pregnancy isn't a medical condition either if you are going to go by that definition. It's also a normal state of a healthy mammal. As I said, equivocation.
No, actually, pregnancy is not the normal state of a healthy mammal. The fact that it happens on accident does not make it "normal," it makes it "common."
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It is not up for the individual to decide what is or is not a disease...
The medical community considers pregnancy a medical condition requiring close monitoring, periodic blood draws, frequent office visits, and often other (uncomfortable) tests as well, not to mention a suite of special behaviors that the woman is advised to perform in order to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible. All of the extra care and monitoring is part of why women don't experience the common condition of death in childbirth as frequently as they used to.
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I want you to go up to every expecting mother you see and tell them they are diseased, I think they will like.
If they want the zef, they'll agree that they should be getting adequate prenatal care. If they don't want it, the'll be likely to decline the prenatal care and possibly call it something worse than 'disease.'
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Pregnancy is REQUIRED for a species survival...
It's required for humans, yes. Your language is very imprecise.
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...you're mom was once pregnant, otherwise you wouldn't have been born.
My mother was pro-choice. I'm glad to know that I was wanted, and not something that she eventually convinced herself to 'accept.'
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You can hardly call a essential mechanism a species survival a disease.
I can call it a medical condition. Even a dangerous medical condition.
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Breathing could kill you to!
Breathing does not kill anyone, unless there is poison in the air.
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Yes, you are less likely to die from abortion, you are also significantly less likely to die when you sit on your ass instead of doing something heroic (like going into fires, standing up to armed attacks, pushing old lady out from in front of cars ect.), though I can't find any precise statistics on heroism.
heroism or inaction is a choice.
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Not to mention that there is nearly a 10 times, in the very least more than 5 times, greater chance a fetus will die if you go with an abortion than follow through with the pregnancy.
The zef doesn't get a choice, since it's using the woman's body without her permission.
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Oh, and your claim about pregnancy only sometimes resulting in a genetically unique organism is more or less false: a genetically unique organism is created at conception, which could be said to be the start of pregnancy.
You are correct that conception is when a genetically unique 2n organism is created, but it is not the start of pregnancy. Pregnancy starts when the zygote implants in the uterus, which less than half of them do.
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when you are getting that picky, but birth does not magically turn a fetus into a unique organism.
Presumably you mean "genetically unique." No, it turns it into an organism capable of its own homeostasis.
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Never said it was healthy to not want to be breathing, but it's the belief, not the fact that you are breathing, that's considered a disease. By extension, I guess not wanting to get pregnant is a disease. (jk).
(jk).Only if you consider pregnancy to be always healthy, normal, comfortable, mundane, routine, life-sustaining and good for the woman in question.
None of which it is.[/quote]
So risking yourself for another living thing is completely ludacris? My bed isn't comfortable, it must be a disease. Female apache attack heilo pilots must be a disease too, because it obviously isn't healthy, routine, normal, mundane or life sustaining to get blown up by an rpg.
If that were all true, why am I able to bear being asperger's ridden and lonely? I must have a disease, why don't I go get myself aborted too. Oh yeah the homeless must be a disease as well.
11 Dec 2013, 6:52 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:03 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:10 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:13 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:14 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:19 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:25 am
sonofghandi
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Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)
11 Dec 2013, 7:46 am
11 Dec 2013, 9:24 am
sonofghandi
Veteran
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,540
Location: Cleveland, OH (and not the nice part)
11 Dec 2013, 9:51 am
11 Dec 2013, 7:20 pm
11 Dec 2013, 7:31 pm
raisedbyignorance wrote:
First of all, it is rather offensive that the title of this thread uses the term "support abortion".
It is not called pro-abortion. It is called pro-choice.
It is not called pro-abortion. It is called pro-choice.
11 Dec 2013, 10:43 pm
11 Dec 2013, 11:22 pm
12 Dec 2013, 3:17 am
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