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Sweetleaf
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16 Dec 2015, 5:19 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, i know all that. The point was the legitimacy of nuking Japan as opposed to a land invasion.


Yeah, and my point is that saving Japanese lives is a BS justification, because saving Japanese lives was never a consideration. At best, it was an unintended side effect.

We nuked Japan for the reasons I listed. At the time, it was the best play Truman could make, but he sure as hell didn't do it to save Japanese lives. :roll:


Exactly, if anything attempts were made at dehumanizing japanese people because it was easier that people believed they were sub-human creatures than people. Especially when it came to rounding up all Japanese Americans and putting them internment camps after pearl harbor.


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16 Dec 2015, 5:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The Japanese were planning to fight to the death; man, woman and child. The civilian population was specifically trained for this, they were to engage in a guerrilla war of attrition in face of the American invasion. An invasion of Japan would of resulted in the deaths of millions, the atomic bombs saved lives by forcing Emperor Hirohito into unconditional surrender. We were preparing to drop more bombs, 3 every month until Japan surrendered. They estimated 5-10 million Japanese might of died in the planned American invasion. The Soviets also planned to invade Japan, from the north in Hokkaido. Japan probably would of been split just like North Korea in that scenario.


Where are you getting that all the civilians were that extreme? I know their military force was taught that and expected to follow that mindset but yeah I have never seen any substantial evidence that all the japanese civilians where bloodthirsty battle hungry barbarians...I know it was common during WW11 to put out propaganda that demonized all the Japanese but don't think all the demonizations were true. But yeah I'd like to see some relevent documentation on this indoctrination of all the civilians including children as I have only heard it theorized but not actually proven that it was the common civilian mindset.

Also I guess the U.S would have destroyed the whole planet had Japan not surrendered, if they were going to drop 3 nukes every month. Also if we truly had to target a large civilian area and indiscriminately kill thousands of civilians why did they have to be nukes? Why didn't they just blitzkrieg them? Nukes put radiation in the atmosphere, ground, water, ect and can prove dangerous to others aside from the target.

And finally even if more would have died had the bombs not been dropped I still think deaths that don't involve nuclear bombs are more humane that is just my opinion there. That said 11 million people died in the holocaust and no one felt the need to nuke civilian areas of Germany...even after it was known the holocaust was going on.

A few points:

1. we were never going to drop 3 bombs a month. We had exactly 2 prototype atom bombs and we dropped them both. It would have taken several months to produce another bomb.

2. when we dropped those bombs we did not know about all the long term after effects--radiation, etc.

3. The initial death toll of the two bombs was about 100,000 people who died instantly for the most part. We burned 88,000 people to death other 3 days when we napalmed Tokyo--that wasn't pleasant for the people involved, I'm sure...

I like I stated before, we killed vast amounts of civilians with conventional bombs. Nukes just made things more efficient.


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GoonSquad
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16 Dec 2015, 5:30 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, i know all that. The point was the legitimacy of nuking Japan as opposed to a land invasion.


Yeah, and my point is that saving Japanese lives is a BS justification, because saving Japanese lives was never a consideration. At best, it was an unintended side effect.

We nuked Japan for the reasons I listed. At the time, it was the best play Truman could make, but he sure as hell didn't do it to save Japanese lives. :roll:


Exactly, if anything attempts were made at dehumanizing japanese people because it was easier that people believed they were sub-human creatures than people. Especially when it came to rounding up all Japanese Americans and putting them internment camps after pearl harbor.

If you dig around enough you can find letters that Truman wrote where he refers to the Japanese as sub-human beasts.

There's no doubt that part of Truman's attitude came from a reaction to Japanese attrocities--they did do some REALLY bad stuff to POWs and the Chinese--but a lot of it was just good, ole racism too.


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16 Dec 2015, 5:54 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The Japanese were planning to fight to the death; man, woman and child. The civilian population was specifically trained for this, they were to engage in a guerrilla war of attrition in face of the American invasion. An invasion of Japan would of resulted in the deaths of millions, the atomic bombs saved lives by forcing Emperor Hirohito into unconditional surrender. We were preparing to drop more bombs, 3 every month until Japan surrendered. They estimated 5-10 million Japanese might of died in the planned American invasion. The Soviets also planned to invade Japan, from the north in Hokkaido. Japan probably would of been split just like North Korea in that scenario.


Where are you getting that all the civilians were that extreme? I know their military force was taught that and expected to follow that mindset but yeah I have never seen any substantial evidence that all the japanese civilians where bloodthirsty battle hungry barbarians...I know it was common during WW11 to put out propaganda that demonized all the Japanese but don't think all the demonizations were true. But yeah I'd like to see some relevent documentation on this indoctrination of all the civilians including children as I have only heard it theorized but not actually proven that it was the common civilian mindset.

Also I guess the U.S would have destroyed the whole planet had Japan not surrendered, if they were going to drop 3 nukes every month. Also if we truly had to target a large civilian area and indiscriminately kill thousands of civilians why did they have to be nukes? Why didn't they just blitzkrieg them? Nukes put radiation in the atmosphere, ground, water, ect and can prove dangerous to others aside from the target.

And finally even if more would have died had the bombs not been dropped I still think deaths that don't involve nuclear bombs are more humane that is just my opinion there. That said 11 million people died in the holocaust and no one felt the need to nuke civilian areas of Germany...even after it was known the holocaust was going on.

A few points:

1. we were never going to drop 3 bombs a month. We had exactly 2 prototype atom bombs and we dropped them both. It would have taken several months to produce another bomb.

2. when we dropped those bombs we did not know about all the long term after effects--radiation, etc.

3. The initial death toll of the two bombs was about 100,000 people who died instantly for the most part. We burned 88,000 people to death other 3 days when we napalmed Tokyo--that wasn't pleasant for the people involved, I'm sure...

I like I stated before, we killed vast amounts of civilians with conventional bombs. Nukes just made things more efficient.


Yeah I never heard of any plans to do that, but that poster brought...and pretty sure 3 nukes a month anywhere would severely harm the whole planet in theory.

Also we sure know now what the after-affects are, but they really had no clue about radiation or what effects it could have?...I guess in that case I cannot look at it like they intended such horrific deaths. I'd hope its a lesson that nukes should never be used again, by far one of the worst inventions.


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16 Dec 2015, 6:48 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The Japanese were planning to fight to the death; man, woman and child. The civilian population was specifically trained for this, they were to engage in a guerrilla war of attrition in face of the American invasion. An invasion of Japan would of resulted in the deaths of millions, the atomic bombs saved lives by forcing Emperor Hirohito into unconditional surrender. We were preparing to drop more bombs, 3 every month until Japan surrendered. They estimated 5-10 million Japanese might of died in the planned American invasion. The Soviets also planned to invade Japan, from the north in Hokkaido. Japan probably would of been split just like North Korea in that scenario.


Where are you getting that all the civilians were that extreme? I know their military force was taught that and expected to follow that mindset but yeah I have never seen any substantial evidence that all the japanese civilians where bloodthirsty battle hungry barbarians...I know it was common during WW11 to put out propaganda that demonized all the Japanese but don't think all the demonizations were true. But yeah I'd like to see some relevent documentation on this indoctrination of all the civilians including children as I have only heard it theorized but not actually proven that it was the common civilian mindset.

Also I guess the U.S would have destroyed the whole planet had Japan not surrendered, if they were going to drop 3 nukes every month. Also if we truly had to target a large civilian area and indiscriminately kill thousands of civilians why did they have to be nukes? Why didn't they just blitzkrieg them? Nukes put radiation in the atmosphere, ground, water, ect and can prove dangerous to others aside from the target.

And finally even if more would have died had the bombs not been dropped I still think deaths that don't involve nuclear bombs are more humane that is just my opinion there. That said 11 million people died in the holocaust and no one felt the need to nuke civilian areas of Germany...even after it was known the holocaust was going on.

Their physical living God who th be been taught to worship and believe was a god over the last few thousand years with no one to tell them otherwise told them to fight to the death or they would be slaughtered by the evil Americans. That's the mindset that drove women to strap bombs to themselves and their children and run into American troops or to thro themselves and their children over cliffs to their death rather then let the American troops get tear them. This is something you as an atheist will never understand. Imagine if tomorrow allah appeared in physical form and told the Muslims to do something. Or better yet go take a trip to North Korea. Dear leader is their God. He is their religion, his grandfarther was born from a mountain. They believe this to be true, they do as he says. You cant begin to process state run brainwashing a effects over thousands of years would drive a populace to fight to the death for their God?



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16 Dec 2015, 7:17 pm

sly279 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The Japanese were planning to fight to the death; man, woman and child. The civilian population was specifically trained for this, they were to engage in a guerrilla war of attrition in face of the American invasion. An invasion of Japan would of resulted in the deaths of millions, the atomic bombs saved lives by forcing Emperor Hirohito into unconditional surrender. We were preparing to drop more bombs, 3 every month until Japan surrendered. They estimated 5-10 million Japanese might of died in the planned American invasion. The Soviets also planned to invade Japan, from the north in Hokkaido. Japan probably would of been split just like North Korea in that scenario.


Where are you getting that all the civilians were that extreme? I know their military force was taught that and expected to follow that mindset but yeah I have never seen any substantial evidence that all the japanese civilians where bloodthirsty battle hungry barbarians...I know it was common during WW11 to put out propaganda that demonized all the Japanese but don't think all the demonizations were true. But yeah I'd like to see some relevent documentation on this indoctrination of all the civilians including children as I have only heard it theorized but not actually proven that it was the common civilian mindset.

Also I guess the U.S would have destroyed the whole planet had Japan not surrendered, if they were going to drop 3 nukes every month. Also if we truly had to target a large civilian area and indiscriminately kill thousands of civilians why did they have to be nukes? Why didn't they just blitzkrieg them? Nukes put radiation in the atmosphere, ground, water, ect and can prove dangerous to others aside from the target.

And finally even if more would have died had the bombs not been dropped I still think deaths that don't involve nuclear bombs are more humane that is just my opinion there. That said 11 million people died in the holocaust and no one felt the need to nuke civilian areas of Germany...even after it was known the holocaust was going on.

Their physical living God who th be been taught to worship and believe was a god over the last few thousand years with no one to tell them otherwise told them to fight to the death or they would be slaughtered by the evil Americans. That's the mindset that drove women to strap bombs to themselves and their children and run into American troops or to thro themselves and their children over cliffs to their death rather then let the American troops get tear them. This is something you as an atheist will never understand. Imagine if tomorrow allah appeared in physical form and told the Muslims to do something. Or better yet go take a trip to North Korea. Dear leader is their God. He is their religion, his grandfarther was born from a mountain. They believe this to be true, they do as he says. You cant begin to process state run brainwashing a effects over thousands of years would drive a populace to fight to the death for their God?


I guess I just have a hard time believing every single person in Japan devoutly believed that, especially without seeing any documentation about it....Americans told Americans that all evil Japanese would slaughter them after pearl harbor so that justified putting citizens who had Japanese ethnicity in internment camps...yet not every american agreed with that.


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16 Dec 2015, 7:18 pm

The Japanese fought to the last man on almost every island, they'd committed suicide en mass on the beaches before surrendering to the Americans and kamikazes were the original suicide bombers. They backed into caves and fought until the last man, there were holdouts in the jungles of the Pacific for decades after the war. Look at the casualties in Okinawa where up to a third of the civilian population died and their 70,000 soldiers were completely wiped out. Considering this, I do not think 5-10 million is an unreasonable total.



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18 Dec 2015, 7:44 pm

There was more. We were aware of Japanese medical experiments, bio-weapons. They were in Manchuria and had produced enough to kill the whole world. They also had a million man army, and all the resources of China.

We did not kill the Emperor because the revenge would have killed the planet.

The Army head staff would have cut their guts out before surrender. It had to come from the Emperor.

Our unconditional surrender deal did not even give us the right to see or talk to the Emperor.

Those in the Biological Warfare group were given full pardons in exchange for their files, and jobs in the US transcribing the work. They also froze people to death, some fast, some slow, and used people at different ranges to test hang grenades.

After bloody Okinawa, we had forward bases, controlled the air, and no one knew the atom bomb existed. After a fast test in the desert, two were made, no one knew if they would work. We knew so much, that troops and camera crews were in open trenches two miles from ground zero. Protection was dark glasses. The troops are seen in light desert uniforms. After the explosion they walked to the blast site. Many of those later died.

While there are laws about killing humans, these were Japs. We forward based enough nerve gas to kill everything in Japan. The plan was to bomb a beach head on the next island, and when the air cleared, move forward with artillery, bombers, and strip at a time kill every living thing.

We had lost a lot of men in the island fighting. We lost a lot more to tropical disease.

The only plan we had was Genocide, that does not cover it, the plan was Biocide. Maybe some plants would survive, doubtful, but every living thing would die.

We were in place and fully stocked to remove all life from the next island when the atom bomb showed up.

While it did work, it blew up, took out a city, they did not accept our offer of surrender, so we did another city. That worked.

It was not as deadly as Tokyo, Dresden, under a hundred thousand, the other plan was to kill ten million.

We did not have the troops to take and occupy even a small part of japan. They have a very high population density.

Even after taking Okinawa and getting close air bases, the anti aircraft guns protected Japan.

We never got to bomb them like we did from England to Germany. Japanese industry was intact.

We had never fought their main armies. They had been pulling back to the home islands.

They had been massing to take back Okinawa. We were tired, weak, with long supply lines, few troops, and our only option was genocide.

The atomic bombs worked for everyone, except the people of those cities. Less people were killed, the war ended.

The bombs used were crude, people two miles from ground zero lived. Modern, New and Improved Bombs, it is more like within twenty miles dies fast. Multi warhead missiles can lay them out in a forty mile grid that takes out the whole area.

Worse, State actors can expect to get hit back hard. A non state actor like ISIS with 90 pounds of radioactive isotopes, could make and deliver dirty bombs. Pakistan does have The Islamic Bomb. The Saudi's just offered to buy one. A non state actor could get one, and a rocket that fits in a shipping container, and transport it through the Persian Gulf, across Iraq, through Turkey, and put it on a ship bound for the Panama Canal.

Launched and exploding a hundred thousand foot above our eastern mountains, the Electro Magnetic Pulse would take out every computer and electric circuit in the eastern US. The lights go out, all control systems stop, banks do not function, and the whole thing has to be rebuilt with new made parts before it works again.

We would track the ship that did it, most likely also blown up, and we would have no way of tracking where it came from.

We would not have mass deaths, but we would be out of food in days, water, sewer, medical supplies, for a hundred million people.

Our reaction should be directed at the threat, not whether banning a race or religion is bigoted.



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19 Dec 2015, 2:01 am

Watched a few shows few years ago that said an emp that takes out our power grid would take 2 years to rebuild the infrastructure and get power back on. We don't have replacement parts they have to be produced in China and sent here. Could you imagine 2 years no power no food no medicine. Stores will run out In days. We'd be too busy surviving to deal with anything else.

Imagine if some terrorist smuggled nukes across the barely guarded Mexican border .



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19 Dec 2015, 12:16 pm

Even the smaller version, a dirty bomb hits New York, the only response is everyone within a hundred miles leaves, 13 million people.

We have never done a cleanup on a large radioactive site. It will at least be closed for years, maybe abandoned.

Ships from South America going to Canada pass twelve miles offshore. A Grad Missile Launcher can reach farther. ISIS has been building their own.

They have the materials, the means, we have to stop this before it happens. We have to stop it at the source.

Trump and Putin are on the same page. Those who fight for ISIS can never return. ISIS held land must be carpet bombed, those who aid and support terrorism must lose the ability to do so.

ISIS is not a State, they murder prisoners, they murder people in night clubs. There is no reason to capture any alive. Any captured should be questioned, and if they live through that, taken out and shot.

I do not agree with the way this happened. What would happen if we destabilized the Middle East? We found out, now we have to deal with that.

Better the dead and the radioactive rubble is in their land, than ours.

We killed civilians in Germany, Japan, Korea, Viet Nam, anyone in ISIS lands is a Member. Non Members were killed.

A Radical Islamic Army has been raised from Muslim Lands. They come from the US, Europe, Russia, and elsewhere. They have Declared War on the west. They are broadly supported by Muslims in the US, Europe, Russia.

Jihad is religious, no country can surrender and end the war, support and supply come from many countries, and Muslim people worldwide. The religion is based on world conquest.

This will be a fight to the death.