Nazis are the enemy.

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Tollorin
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18 Aug 2017, 10:20 pm

will@rd wrote:

KagamineLen wrote:

Why are so many people refusing to recognize that?

We had a World War about it.

Many people laid down their lives to rid the world of the Nazi scourge.

Now we have people willing to disrespect the memory of all who have fought and died to protect the planet from ethnic cleansing by stating that National Socialism is a legitimate political platform. And that anybody who makes a stand against it is an monster.

This is not what the Allied soldiers fought for at all.

Nazis deserve no quarter. Nazis deserve no legitimacy. Nazis deserve no complacency in the face of their marches.

Why is that really so hard for some people to understand?

Antifa and BLM are not Allied soldiers. Antifascishtiche Aktion was created in the 1930s, as a Communist opposition to Nazism; Black Lives Matter was founded by Alicia Garza, an avowed Communist. The only reason you are not being told this, is because the US Mainstream Media is the corporate lapdog of the Globalist "Progressive" Left, and will never say anything that portrays Marxist Socialists in a negative light.

Nazis (National SOCIALISTS) murdered over 6 Million people during WWII. Over the past century, Communists have slaughtered more than 200 Million, enforcing their worldview on others.

There are no "good guys" in this conflict. Neither of these groups of people want a United States governed under it's founding principles of individualism and liberty. Both want to impose their hateful tyranny on those around them, and kill or oppress anyone who argues.

When another group has a legal permit to exercise their right to Free Speech, and you show up without any permit, baseball bat in hand, to silence them, you can only expect a fight. If you are injured or killed in that violence, you have no one but yourself to blame. All these people were thugs. the only good end that could have come from it would have been if they had all killed each other.

As far as political power goes in western countries the extreme right is far more influential that any communism movement: it's so bad that even politicians that propose to return to Keynesian economy, which worked better that the trickle-down economy of today, are considered of the extreme left.

All this discourse on how Antifas are somehow responsible that a maniac with a car rolled over them...victims blaming at it's finest, and like always since begun the 21th century the right wing propaganda somehow work and push us further toward catastrophe.

The OP is not the only one been scared by this situation, I am too; I am because I'm not naive enough to think that war or a fascist government can't happen in my home, I am since late 2015 when I have seen how much Trump was gaining support not only despite stupid authoritarian discourses, but because of stupid authoritarian discourse. May his stupidity save us from him...

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DarthMetaKnight
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19 Aug 2017, 12:48 am

Conservatives Right Now
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adifferentname
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19 Aug 2017, 2:20 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I'll take the designation of being "Fake News" as a compliment, as that conservative insult is applied to those news sources that are just the exact opposite of real fake news.

Avoiding giving straight answers again, Bill?

It's rather telling that, when confronted with anything that contradicts your binary world view, your responses are invariably the textual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING!".

If you lack the fortitude to defend your flimsy rhetoric, I suggest you discontinue the petty attempts at pigeon-holing and, likewise, desist from peddling your Identitarian drivel.

I've decided giving answer to you, straight or otherwise, hardly is worth my time.

"Anything that causes me to doubt or question my beliefs isn't worth my time."

How admirable!

Quote:

You're the one who accused me of "identity politics," when I fail to recall how I wrote anything in defense of a particular ethnicity I might belong to.

You use identity politics, but don't understand what is meant by identity politics.

Hint: Race and ethnicity comprise only one form of identity politics.
Hint 2: You repeatedly treat "conservative" and "right wing" as monolithic groups, either explicitly or by implication.

Quote:

Or in other words, your accusations are specious, as I did no such thing.

My "accusation" is bang on point. Examine your posts in this thread and you'll find multiple examples of language referring to identity groups, as well as explicit pigeon-holing of people based purely on their criticism of yourself.

I'm willing to lead you to water, Bill, but I'm not about to force a hosepipe down your throat.

marshall
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19 Aug 2017, 3:20 am

will@rd wrote:

How can something be simultaneously a "corporate lapdog" and pro Marxist Socialist? Seems like a contradiction to me. Also, why do people like you always use tedious partisan buzzwords like "Globalist" or "Mainstream Media" without giving any inkling of what you actually mean. People are just supposed to automatically recoil in horror when they hear a word like "globalist" or "communist". Doesn't work on people who are not already ideologically indoctrinated by the right.

Quote:

Nazis (National SOCIALISTS) murdered over 6 Million people during WWII. Over the past century, Communists have slaughtered more than 200 Million, enforcing their worldview on others.

6 Million is only counting the holocaust. If you count the allied civilians killed by Nazi's I imagine the number would be a bit higher. Also, you only include ONE conflict in the case of the german nazi's. What about all the other conflicts around the world involving mass murders by fascists and ultra-nationalists of various stripes?

Quote:

There are no "good guys" in this conflict. Neither of these groups of people want a United States governed under it's founding principles of individualism and liberty. Both want to impose their hateful tyranny on those around them, and kill or oppress anyone who argues.

No "good guys". So the Christian protesters holding hands and praying were violent commies? Women with silly pink clothes? These were all violent commies?

Quote:

When another group has a legal permit to exercise their right to Free Speech, and you show up without any permit, baseball bat in hand, to silence them, you can only expect a fight. If you are injured or killed in that violence, you have no one but yourself to blame. All these people were thugs. the only good end that could have come from it would have been if they had all killed each other.

Have you even looked at the videos? The ones on the left who came armed with things like baseball bats were a tiny minority. Watching clips closely its a struggle to find them. The alt-right group had a whole paramilitary division, including semi-automatic weapons.

I also don't believe in the legalistic nonsense of having to have a permit to protest. Do you think local governments in southern states gave black civil rights protesters permits?

DarthMetaKnight
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19 Aug 2017, 3:31 am

@Marshall: Stop giving Will@rd attention. That's exactly what he wants. There's no use arguing with a "red pilled alpha male".

Fun Fact: The "red pill" is usually taken as a suppository.

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marshall
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19 Aug 2017, 3:41 am

adifferentname wrote:

I'm sure you have NEVER done such a thing. :roll:

Seriously. Please just admit you both do it.

If you want to accuse people on "the left" of being the more extreme in terms of "identity politics". Keep in mind that this forum doesn't represent a true cross-section of the political spectrum the US. "the left" on WP tends to be fairly well represented with many holding views that are quite far to the left. Conservatives on WP tend to be more moderate and considerate than conservatives in the general population. The true far-right is not really present here on WP. Go to any un-moderated forum with political discussions and you will encounter shrieking right-wing trolls who do nothing but label and insult.

adifferentname
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19 Aug 2017, 4:33 am

marshall wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

I'm sure you have NEVER done such a thing. :roll:

Seriously. Please just admit you both do it.

Cite examples. I deal with individuals, not ideologies. With behaviours, not beliefs, except where such necessarily apply to those who self-identify (e.g. Catholics). The misuse of terms such as "liberals" or "conservatives" is every bit as egregious as the misapplication of "left" and "right".

Quote:

If you want to accuse people on "the left" of being the more extreme in terms of "identity politics".

Obvious strawman is obvious. I'm not interested in the left-right dichotomy except as people apply it to themselves and their own thinking. I've accused individuals, not identities, of engaging in identity politics on a case-by-case basis.

Quote:

Keep in mind that this forum doesn't represent a true cross-section of the political spectrum the US.

Keep in mind that I'm not treating any group on this forum as monolithic, as representative of a wider group or as being fundamentally evil by even the most tenuous of associations.

Quote:

"the left" on WP tends to be fairly well represented with many holding views that are quite far to the left.

No sh*t, Sherlock.

Quote:

Conservatives on WP tend to be more moderate and considerate than conservatives in the general population. The true far-right is not really present here on WP.

You're literally parroting points I've recently made on this very board. I propose you offer your eggs to someone else's grandmother.

Quote:

Go to any un-moderated forum with political discussions and you will encounter shrieking right-wing trolls who do nothing but label and insult.

In other news, water is wet.

EzraS
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19 Aug 2017, 5:14 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

@Marshall: Stop giving Will@rd attention. That's exactly what he wants. There's no use arguing with a "red pilled alpha male".

Fun Fact: The "red pill" is usually taken as a suppository.

I thought y'all were into calling people who disagree with you blue pills. Had a long convo about it with Misslizard.

synthpop
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19 Aug 2017, 5:52 am

The only reason that people who aren't blatant Nazi-sympathizers and white nationalists aren't fully opposing the right-wing rallies and taking down of confederate statues is due to the fact that those leading the counter-protests are communists, and Americans are still terrified of communists. It's hilariously absurd to witness. They seem to forget that communists were destroying Nazis left and right in WWII. America had propaganda posters at one point which stated "This man is your friend! He fights for freedom!" in reference to a Soviet soldier. Absolutely hilarious how the US turned against the USSR with its disgusting violent nature and imperialistic desires. Now, we have people arguing about whether or not white supremacists should be treated like they're espousing just another opinion. White supremacy is no 'opinion' to be tolerated. It's a lot more than just a 'political belief.'
I don't really actively advocate for 'punching Nazis' all the time like a lot of anarchists do, simply because it gives those punched an excuse to claim they're the oppressed ones, that they're victims. Any harm, even if morally justified, against them done by random people will just be used as a way to fuel their platform, honestly. But I did enjoy seeing Richard Spencer get BTFO'd.
A lot of liberals (not leftists, of course--liberals aren't leftist, a distinction between them must be made) and conservatives are both condemning these white supremacists. Some are claiming that they have a right to free speech and shouldn't be stopped in any way. Honestly, I've seen more supposed 'centrists' defend the neo-Nazis than anyone else. Ridiculous.

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adifferentname
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19 Aug 2017, 6:49 am

synthpop wrote:

Yet another post implying everyone who is X fits neatly into box Y.

Let's spin this around. Tell me which of the following statements are in contradiction with one another.

"I fundamentally and completely disapprove of communism."
"I believe communists should have a right to free speech and to peaceful assembly."
"I am opposed to the use of violence as a means of pushing a political message."
"I do not approve of historical monuments being pulled down just because I happen to disagree with the person depicted by it."

Quote:

It's hilariously absurd to witness.

Really? I find it gravely concerning. By chance or design (I tend towards believing the latter) there exists an increasingly violent division in America that is on the brink of getting out of control.

Quote:

They seem to forget that communists were destroying Nazis left and right in WWII. America had propaganda posters at one point which stated "This man is your friend! He fights for freedom!" in reference to a Soviet soldier. Absolutely hilarious how the US turned against the USSR with its disgusting violent nature and imperialistic desires. Now, we have people arguing about whether or not white supremacists should be treated like they're espousing just another opinion. White supremacy is no 'opinion' to be tolerated. It's a lot more than just a 'political belief.'

What do you propose we do to those who espouse white supremacist opinions without infringing on their rights?

Quote:

I don't really actively advocate for 'punching Nazis' all the time like a lot of anarchists do, simply because it gives those punched an excuse to claim they're the oppressed ones, that they're victims. Any harm, even if morally justified, against them done by random people will just be used as a way to fuel their platform, honestly. But I did enjoy seeing Richard Spencer get BTFO'd.

It more than gives them an excuse, it literally makes them victims. That's before taking into consideration the unqualified accusations, "He's a Nazi! Gerrim!", being levelled by some people at anyone to the "right" of Marx.

Quote:

A lot of liberals (not leftists, of course--liberals aren't leftist, a distinction between them must be made)

Indeed.

Quote:

and conservatives are both condemning these white supremacists. Some are claiming that they have a right to free speech and shouldn't be stopped in any way. Honestly, I've seen more supposed 'centrists' defend the neo-Nazis than anyone else. Ridiculous.

What is ridiculous about defending the right to free speech and freedom from harm? To defend those principles is to defend all whom they apply to, not just "neo-Nazis".

To be liberal is to uphold the articles of the Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen:

"Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the enjoyment of these same rights. These borders can be determined only by the law."

Or, if you prefer, as John Stuart Mill asserted:

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

And for the Biblically-inclined:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Drake
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19 Aug 2017, 8:01 am

synthpop wrote:

Yeah, the USSR was really great when it was slicing up Poland together with the nazis, helping kick off WW2, when the USSR was suffering under the blood soaked rule of a dictator, a paranoid man who purged anyone with a decent brain who he thought might not lick his boot, a man who signed a deal with Hitler that he wouldn't tread on his toes if he didn't tread on his. If Hitler hadn't been an imbecile, he might well have been ruling Western Europe and Stalin Eastern Europe. There's a reason the Germans rushed West to surrender and rushed West to escape East Germany after, before they were locked behind a wall and all but made slaves.

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19 Aug 2017, 12:56 pm

Where are these "Nazis" anyway? All I see on the news is people yelling at the Trump building which I find is totally stupid because.

1) Trump doesn't have any control over Nazis.
2) Trump doesn't live anywhere close to Nazis territories. Trump lives in the Eastern US states, whereas Nazis typically live in the Western US states.
3) Trump doesn't actually live in Trump tower anymore. He lives in the white house.

Tim_Tex
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19 Aug 2017, 1:31 pm

@Marshall: 6 million was only the Jews, I think it was about 12 million total killed in the Holocaust.

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Kraichgauer
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19 Aug 2017, 10:55 pm

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I'll take the designation of being "Fake News" as a compliment, as that conservative insult is applied to those news sources that are just the exact opposite of real fake news.

I've decided giving answer to you, straight or otherwise, hardly is worth my time.

"Anything that causes me to doubt or question my beliefs isn't worth my time."

How admirable!

Quote:

You're the one who accused me of "identity politics," when I fail to recall how I wrote anything in defense of a particular ethnicity I might belong to.

Quote:

Or in other words, your accusations are specious, as I did no such thing.

With the exception of you, I have NEVER heard the term encompass anything other than ethnicity or possibly class. And if I am guilty of promoting identity politics by promoting a leftist narrative, then so are you with doing the same with the right.

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adifferentname
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20 Aug 2017, 1:53 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I'll take the designation of being "Fake News" as a compliment, as that conservative insult is applied to those news sources that are just the exact opposite of real fake news.

I've decided giving answer to you, straight or otherwise, hardly is worth my time.

"Anything that causes me to doubt or question my beliefs isn't worth my time."

How admirable!

Quote:

You're the one who accused me of "identity politics," when I fail to recall how I wrote anything in defense of a particular ethnicity I might belong to.

Quote:

Or in other words, your accusations are specious, as I did no such thing.

Your ignorance does not constitute an argument, Bill. And I made no mention of either "left" nor "right" narratives. Identity politics is the sole domain of neither wing.

Kraichgauer
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20 Aug 2017, 2:06 am

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I'll take the designation of being "Fake News" as a compliment, as that conservative insult is applied to those news sources that are just the exact opposite of real fake news.

I've decided giving answer to you, straight or otherwise, hardly is worth my time.

"Anything that causes me to doubt or question my beliefs isn't worth my time."

How admirable!

Quote:

You're the one who accused me of "identity politics," when I fail to recall how I wrote anything in defense of a particular ethnicity I might belong to.

Quote:

Or in other words, your accusations are specious, as I did no such thing.

Your ignorance does not constitute an argument, Bill. And I made no mention of either "left" nor "right" narratives. Identity politics is the sole domain of neither wing.

If taking one side or another politically was identity politics, then everyone would be guilty of it. But no, that is not identity politics. Rather, it constitutes identifying solely with people of one's own ethnicity, or religion, or social class at the exclusion of all others. Hell, by your definition, siding with a favorite football team would be identity politics!

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