envirozentinel
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15 Dec 2018, 4:48 am
15 Dec 2018, 4:56 am
envirozentinel wrote:
Both sides were far from perfect. Yes the northeners can't say they totally had the moral high ground.
Your last phrase sure is an classic understatement! Lincoln did a lot for unification, even if he was far from perfect himself.
...
Your last phrase sure is an classic understatement! Lincoln did a lot for unification, even if he was far from perfect himself.
...
The North likes to think that they were perfect though just because they won the war.
I liked Abraham Lincoln and I wish that the US had more presidents like him. He had compassion.
envirozentinel
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15 Dec 2018, 5:09 am
15 Dec 2018, 5:16 am
envirozentinel wrote:
You're right
I wonder how Truman felt when he ordered the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did he have any misgivings at the terrible civilian loss of life?
Just as a matter of interest, Google Jeannette Rankin. She was the only member of Congress to vote against the US entering WW2. People turned against her but she stuck to her beliefs and would not be swayed.
I wonder how Truman felt when he ordered the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Did he have any misgivings at the terrible civilian loss of life?
Just as a matter of interest, Google Jeannette Rankin. She was the only member of Congress to vote against the US entering WW2. People turned against her but she stuck to her beliefs and would not be swayed.
I think that all Americans really should be more ashamed of what we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki but most of them don't seem to feel bad about it at all. Go figure right?
I don't really like reading about wars because the subject depresses me so much but maybe I should try to anyways? Knowlege is power.
envirozentinel
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15 Dec 2018, 6:06 am
15 Dec 2018, 6:23 am
envirozentinel
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Location: Keshron, Super-Zakhyria
15 Dec 2018, 6:37 am
15 Dec 2018, 2:44 pm
envirozentinel wrote:
I couldn't handle that either. Killing civilians especially children.
That's why Wilhuff Tarkin should be seen as the worst villain in Star Wars movies as he ordered the destruction of an entire planet
Which isn't too different from what Truman did....
That's why Wilhuff Tarkin should be seen as the worst villain in Star Wars movies as he ordered the destruction of an entire planet
Which isn't too different from what Truman did....
Reading this is what's making me reminisce watching the saddest movie of all time, Grave of the Fireflies.
15 Dec 2018, 3:26 pm
Kraichgauer
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Posts: 48,710
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
15 Dec 2018, 5:01 pm
TW1ZTY wrote:
As somebody who lives in the south here in the US one thing I hate is that belief northerners have that they weren't racist towards black people because they freed slavery after defeating us during the American Civil War.
That is a load of crap because they were very racist too. Black soldiers who fought for the Union were paid less than white soldiers for one thing, and many weren't even allowed to have guns they had to fight with shovels. In fact one of the reasons many black families stayed in the south after the war was because they could not find any work up north and they still had no rights and would not be given rights until almost 100 years later during the Civil Rights Movement.
I also would get disgusted at the history books in school that sugarcoated the way that they treated the south during and after the war. Things like "The wonderful Union felt sorry for the evil racist Confederates because they were dirty, smelly, starving, and had no shoes so they fed them food and help their southern brothers and sisters rebuild the south after everything was burned to the ground by General Sherman". Pretty much minimizing the part about how screwed up it really was that they starved us into surrendering by destroying our farms, cutting off our supplies, and looting our towns and that a lot of the people who helped "rebuild" the south were just carpetbagger scumbags who came down to profit from the devestation that was done to us and they took advantage of a lot of southerners. Damn Yankees...
Also those same merciful northerners wanted to have us all shot and executed as traitors to the country. The only thing that stopped them from doing that was President Lincoln who felt that it would be wrong.
That is a load of crap because they were very racist too. Black soldiers who fought for the Union were paid less than white soldiers for one thing, and many weren't even allowed to have guns they had to fight with shovels. In fact one of the reasons many black families stayed in the south after the war was because they could not find any work up north and they still had no rights and would not be given rights until almost 100 years later during the Civil Rights Movement.
I also would get disgusted at the history books in school that sugarcoated the way that they treated the south during and after the war. Things like "The wonderful Union felt sorry for the evil racist Confederates because they were dirty, smelly, starving, and had no shoes so they fed them food and help their southern brothers and sisters rebuild the south after everything was burned to the ground by General Sherman". Pretty much minimizing the part about how screwed up it really was that they starved us into surrendering by destroying our farms, cutting off our supplies, and looting our towns and that a lot of the people who helped "rebuild" the south were just carpetbagger scumbags who came down to profit from the devestation that was done to us and they took advantage of a lot of southerners. Damn Yankees...
Also those same merciful northerners wanted to have us all shot and executed as traitors to the country. The only thing that stopped them from doing that was President Lincoln who felt that it would be wrong.
I disagree with much you've written about Reconstruction. Most so called carpetbaggers weren't the looters made out in the lost cause mythology, but did help the freedmen immensely. The Reconstruction state governments were actually no more corrupt than the Confederate government was, and a great deal less so than the so called Redeemed state governments following Reconstruction. Blacks and Pro-Union southern whites (and make no mistake, there were many of those) were for a time put into positions of power, which they largely used to extend justice and equality in the south. But unfortunately, there were those incoming northerners who did misuse their positions to enrich themselves at the south's expense, giving all the rest a bad name, earning them the designation of carpetbaggers.
As terrible as Sherman's march to the sea was, it won the north the war. Sherman understood the enemy's most important front was his home front.
No, the north wasn't without the sin of racial prejudice toward blacks.
I, myself, am not just a northerner, but when it comes to regional identity, I think of myself as a westerner. My part of the country's history and legacy takes place largely after the Civil War, and so I admittedly don't dwell on that conflict; something which I understand is very different for your part of the country. Terrible things had been done to Native Americans, and Asian laborers in my home region, but we have the understanding that we can condemn the crimes of our forebears without bearing responsibility for something we had no part in.
15 Dec 2018, 5:50 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
As somebody who lives in the south here in the US one thing I hate is that belief northerners have that they weren't racist towards black people because they freed slavery after defeating us during the American Civil War.
That is a load of crap because they were very racist too. Black soldiers who fought for the Union were paid less than white soldiers for one thing, and many weren't even allowed to have guns they had to fight with shovels. In fact one of the reasons many black families stayed in the south after the war was because they could not find any work up north and they still had no rights and would not be given rights until almost 100 years later during the Civil Rights Movement.
I also would get disgusted at the history books in school that sugarcoated the way that they treated the south during and after the war. Things like "The wonderful Union felt sorry for the evil racist Confederates because they were dirty, smelly, starving, and had no shoes so they fed them food and help their southern brothers and sisters rebuild the south after everything was burned to the ground by General Sherman". Pretty much minimizing the part about how screwed up it really was that they starved us into surrendering by destroying our farms, cutting off our supplies, and looting our towns and that a lot of the people who helped "rebuild" the south were just carpetbagger scumbags who came down to profit from the devestation that was done to us and they took advantage of a lot of southerners. Damn Yankees...
Also those same merciful northerners wanted to have us all shot and executed as traitors to the country. The only thing that stopped them from doing that was President Lincoln who felt that it would be wrong.
That is a load of crap because they were very racist too. Black soldiers who fought for the Union were paid less than white soldiers for one thing, and many weren't even allowed to have guns they had to fight with shovels. In fact one of the reasons many black families stayed in the south after the war was because they could not find any work up north and they still had no rights and would not be given rights until almost 100 years later during the Civil Rights Movement.
I also would get disgusted at the history books in school that sugarcoated the way that they treated the south during and after the war. Things like "The wonderful Union felt sorry for the evil racist Confederates because they were dirty, smelly, starving, and had no shoes so they fed them food and help their southern brothers and sisters rebuild the south after everything was burned to the ground by General Sherman". Pretty much minimizing the part about how screwed up it really was that they starved us into surrendering by destroying our farms, cutting off our supplies, and looting our towns and that a lot of the people who helped "rebuild" the south were just carpetbagger scumbags who came down to profit from the devestation that was done to us and they took advantage of a lot of southerners. Damn Yankees...
Also those same merciful northerners wanted to have us all shot and executed as traitors to the country. The only thing that stopped them from doing that was President Lincoln who felt that it would be wrong.
I disagree with much you've written about Reconstruction. Most so called carpetbaggers weren't the looters made out in the lost cause mythology, but did help the freedmen immensely. The Reconstruction state governments were actually no more corrupt than the Confederate government was, and a great deal less so than the so called Redeemed state governments following Reconstruction. Blacks and Pro-Union southern whites (and make no mistake, there were many of those) were for a time put into positions of power, which they largely used to extend justice and equality in the south. But unfortunately, there were those incoming northerners who did misuse their positions to enrich themselves at the south's expense, giving all the rest a bad name, earning them the designation of carpetbaggers.
As terrible as Sherman's march to the sea was, it won the north the war. Sherman understood the enemy's most important front was his home front.
No, the north wasn't without the sin of racial prejudice toward blacks.
I, myself, am not just a northerner, but when it comes to regional identity, I think of myself as a westerner. My part of the country's history and legacy takes place largely after the Civil War, and so I admittedly don't dwell on that conflict; something which I understand is very different for your part of the country. Terrible things had been done to Native Americans, and Asian laborers in my home region, but we have the understanding that we can condemn the crimes of our forebears without bearing responsibility for something we had no part in.
It sounds to me like you actually do agree with what I said other than the carpetbagger part.
It just really annoys me every time I hear people from up north (like my teacher in 6th grade who was from New Jeresy) put us down for the racism in our own culture and talking as if they were never racist themselves when that simply is not true. They may not have believed in slavery but they still treated black people, Native Americans, and anybody who wasn't a rich white man like garbage. Also most black people will tell you that here in the US racism is just as bad up north as it is here in the south and anywhere else you go in this country.
And maybe some of those people really were just trying to help rebuild the south after the war but the fact that there were scumbags who took advantage of the situation and could get away with it is despicable. Not to mention that the arrogance and general attitude that northerners have about the south is annoying as hell. They think we are all nothing but a bunch of racist inbreeding illiterates like the stereotypes you see on TV and that is very insulting to me. Most people I have met from up north who move down here tend to act like they are better than the rest of us.
But I have to be honest, not all of them are that terrible. I've met a few who were nice enough like my Mama's friend and my cousin's ex gitlfriend who were both from Upstate New York.
And yeah you are absolutely right. People in this part of the country can't let go of a grudge.
15 Dec 2018, 6:12 pm
15 Dec 2018, 6:20 pm
I don't know if this really counts but I also hate the fact that in the US the Native Americans are still called "Indians". We all know they are not Indians and this is not India so why do we still call them that?
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,710
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
15 Dec 2018, 7:07 pm
TW1ZTY wrote:
I don't know if this really counts but I also hate the fact that in the US the Native Americans are still called "Indians". We all know they are not Indians and this is not India so why do we still call them that?
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Jackass that Columbus was, he thought he had landed in India while looking for China, not realizing he had discovered Americans.
Columbus wasn't even the first European to come to America, but his discovery caused the avalanche of European explorers and settlers.
15 Dec 2018, 7:12 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I don't know if this really counts but I also hate the fact that in the US the Native Americans are still called "Indians". We all know they are not Indians and this is not India so why do we still call them that?
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Jackass that Columbus was, he thought he had landed in India while looking for China, not realizing he had discovered Americans.
Columbus wasn't even the first European to come to America, but his discovery caused the avalanche of European explorers and settlers.
Yeah I know, and I hate the fact that people have argued about who really discovered this country first when there were people living here long before the Europeans came. Obviously the answer should be "The Natives".
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,710
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
15 Dec 2018, 9:56 pm
TW1ZTY wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
TW1ZTY wrote:
I don't know if this really counts but I also hate the fact that in the US the Native Americans are still called "Indians". We all know they are not Indians and this is not India so why do we still call them that?
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Also people try to claim that everyone including Christopher Columbus discovered America first except for the native people themselves who were actually here first long before any explorers came. But I guess for some racist reason they didn't count.
Jackass that Columbus was, he thought he had landed in India while looking for China, not realizing he had discovered Americans.
Columbus wasn't even the first European to come to America, but his discovery caused the avalanche of European explorers and settlers.
Yeah I know, and I hate the fact that people have argued about who really discovered this country first when there were people living here long before the Europeans came. Obviously the answer should be "The Natives".
Absolutely. Also to be included should be prehistoric Australian Aborigines who had arrived in the Americas, and whose population was probably pushed to extinction thousands of years ago by ancestors of modern Native Americans.
There is evidence of the Chinese, and perhaps even the Phoenicians coming to ancient America.
Famously, Vikings from Greenland had come to North America, though little came from attempts to settle, and was soon almost completely forgotten.
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