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The "Black Hole" of woke....

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TwilightPrincess
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25 Aug 2022, 6:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:

“Woke” means different things to different people. You are using a strawman.


I have repeatedly defined the term, it is others who refuse to acknowledge that this is a distinct ideology that is markedly different than previous civil rights and liberties struggles, who in my belief deliberately confuse the issue by refusing to accept a label. Woke is short and snappy and the vast majority of people know what you mean when you say it, but my ears are open for alternatives if anyone would suggest them.

Also, a straw man is when you misstate another person's argument in order to knock down a weaker version of it, so your incorrect usage of it here is doubly ironic.


You are misrepresenting League Girl’s argument. This is exactly what you are doing:

Quote:
A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and- ... straw-man/

Your understanding of “woke” does not reflect everyone else’s.



TwilightPrincess
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25 Aug 2022, 6:24 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Actually, women who don't want to be called "women" because of the "men" ending prefer to be called "womyn."


SOME do. I don’t care for “womyn.” I prefer using gender neutral terms wherever possible.

I think that gender is too inflated of a concept. We are all people first.



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25 Aug 2022, 6:35 pm

Yes, we are people first. I believe that firmly.

But I also believe there are delightful aspects of both the male and female gender, and that there would be less delight if we lived in a totally genderless society.

There are certain aspects of women which men must respect----and vice versa.



TwilightPrincess
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25 Aug 2022, 6:45 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, we are people first. I believe that firmly.

But I also believe there are delightful aspects of both the male and female gender, and that there would be less delight if we lived in a totally genderless society.

There are certain aspects of women which men must respect----and vice versa.

I think we should respect the differences among ALL people. This does not need to be about gender at all.

Supposed gender differences are often socially constructed.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 25 Aug 2022, 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

League_Girl
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25 Aug 2022, 6:48 pm

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I wonder what happened there, is he trying to get himself banned?


According to Alex, calling out another poster's bigotry is not a personal attack, so no. What I'm doing is holding you to the standards you endorsed when you called yourself woke, which includes using inclusive language in place of many everyday terms, e.g. "woman", which should be replaced by an acceptable alternative such as uterus haver, menstruator, birthing person (specifically for mothers), etc. Did you not realize that this sort of thing is part of what being woke entails?



Dude, there is nothing bigoted talking about how women were treated then and what the standards for them were back then. That isn't what the word bigot means. I dont know if you're trolling or not so this is my last response to you here.


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25 Aug 2022, 7:15 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Actually, women who don't want to be called "women" because of the "men" ending prefer to be called "womyn."


The origin of woman is from the Anglo-Saxon "Wife-man".



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25 Aug 2022, 7:17 pm

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I wonder what happened there, is he trying to get himself banned?


According to Alex, calling out another poster's bigotry is not a personal attack, so no. What I'm doing is holding you to the standards you endorsed when you called yourself woke, which includes using inclusive language in place of many everyday terms, e.g. "woman", which should be replaced by an acceptable alternative such as uterus haver, menstruator, birthing person (specifically for mothers), etc. Did you not realize that this sort of thing is part of what being woke entails?


Except there's nothing bigoted about what league girl said.



TwilightPrincess
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25 Aug 2022, 7:37 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I wonder what happened there, is he trying to get himself banned?


According to Alex, calling out another poster's bigotry is not a personal attack, so no. What I'm doing is holding you to the standards you endorsed when you called yourself woke, which includes using inclusive language in place of many everyday terms, e.g. "woman", which should be replaced by an acceptable alternative such as uterus haver, menstruator, birthing person (specifically for mothers), etc. Did you not realize that this sort of thing is part of what being woke entails?


Except there's nothing bigoted about what league girl said.

It’s a parody of what he thinks being “woke” is.



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25 Aug 2022, 7:40 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I wonder what happened there, is he trying to get himself banned?


According to Alex, calling out another poster's bigotry is not a personal attack, so no. What I'm doing is holding you to the standards you endorsed when you called yourself woke, which includes using inclusive language in place of many everyday terms, e.g. "woman", which should be replaced by an acceptable alternative such as uterus haver, menstruator, birthing person (specifically for mothers), etc. Did you not realize that this sort of thing is part of what being woke entails?


Except there's nothing bigoted about what league girl said.

It’s a parody of what he thinks being “woke” is.


I think he's taking some licence to throw a jab under the guise of parody/sarcasm



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25 Aug 2022, 8:03 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
It’s a parody of what he thinks being “woke” is.
That's my understanding too - but it's failed to find a target.

And for the purposes of this thread at least - I'm using my discretion and retaining the conventional understanding that "You're racist" and "You're a bigot" are personal attacks, where "That's racist, because ..." and "That's bigoted, because ..." are not.


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League_Girl
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25 Aug 2022, 8:21 pm

I dont get the point and I have never seen anyone saying "women" is an insult, only females if you are not referring men as males so i dont believe a word Dox47 is saying. Something must have happened to make him act this way because it's so out of character.


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Dox47
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25 Aug 2022, 8:58 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
You are misrepresenting League Girl’s argument.


She thinks wokeness and conventional civil rights activism are the same thing, which they are not. I'm not misstating her argument, I'm correcting her misunderstanding of the terms, and illustrating the point by demonstrating a typical woke attack on commonly used and benign language.

Twilightprincess wrote:
Your understanding of “woke” does not reflect everyone else’s.


Okay then, what word would you suggest to differentiate modern identity politics from conventional civil rights activism? You either need to pick one, or stop objecting when one is picked for you, you can't do both.


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TwilightPrincess
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25 Aug 2022, 9:02 pm

Quote:
Okay then, what word would you suggest to differentiate modern identity politics from conventional civil rights activism? You either need to pick one, or stop objecting when one is picked for you, you can't do both.


This is called the false dilemma/false dichotomy fallacy. I don’t have to pick a word in order to object to your stance.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 25 Aug 2022, 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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25 Aug 2022, 9:03 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I dont get the point and I have never seen anyone saying "women" is an insult, only females if you are not referring men as males so i dont believe a word Dox47 is saying. Something must have happened to make him act this way because it's so out of character.


I'm trying to get you to understand that wokeness is not the same thing as civil rights for women and minorities, that it refers to a much more radical school of thought where identity is the most important thing about a person, and that some of them absolutely would call you a bigot for using a gendered word like "woman". I've explained it to you many times over the years without effect, so I decided to try a different approach, which apparently wasn't obvious enough for this board.


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Dox47
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25 Aug 2022, 9:06 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
This is called the false dilemma fallacy. I don’t have to pick a word in order to object to your stance.


I assure you, picking a word will be less trouble than trying to rhetorically fight me on it, but you still won't because you get so much mileage out of the fuzzy definition, criticism being so easily deflected with more word games instead of substantive engagement. So, woke it is.


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Dox47
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25 Aug 2022, 9:13 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
It’s a parody of what he thinks being “woke” is.


And yet, if I were hiding behind a sockpuppet account, you really wouldn't be able to tell, as wokeness has become impossible to parody. As I mentioned up thread, other actual wokes wouldn't be able to call me out as they don't know what the dogma is going to look like tomorrow, and cancellation is retroactive, so they can't mock within their own tent and thus have no way of pumping the ideological brakes. Even religious conservatives have more effective in group policing, "get a load of those whackjobs" is pretty common when some outlandish fundamentalists show up at the church BBQ, but evangelical progressives always have to fear that those whackjobs will be in charge tomorrow and be looking to purge the blasphemers.


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