That slippery word "woke"

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06 Nov 2023, 4:21 pm

When I think of the word "woke" (and it isn't a word I use), I think of the stereotypical ones who assume bigotry without definitive proof.

An example would be:

Halle Bailey in the Little Mermaid: I would not consider it "woke" in and of itself

"If you don't like Little Mermaid '23 better than Little Mermaid '89, you're racist": I would consider that notion to be "woke"

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Dox47
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06 Nov 2023, 7:11 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

"More ferociously" than you "ever have"??? No, far from it. Freddie De Boer comes across (to me, at least) as much less fundamentally hostile toward today's marginalized-group rights movements than you do.

I was referring specifically to the word game aspect, which if you read any volume of Freddie, you'll find many attacks on. I'm also not hostile to marginalized groups, I'm hostile to movements that attempt to use them as cudgels or infantilize them as victims without agency, as so many woke type groups do.

Mona Pereth wrote:

He comes across to me as sympathetic to the basic aims of these movements, but criticizing them from a Marxist perspective (he refers to himself as a Marxist here, for example), and from the point of view of an experienced political activist critiquing the naivete of a lot of today's young activists. (Any political movement that explodes in popularity as rapidly as today's social justice movements is likely to be dominated by naive young fanatics, with consequences similar to what happened within, for example, the feminist movement in the early 1970's, about which I'll say more later, in another post.)

Yes, I know, I've been reading him for years, that's why I'm linking him as someone who is both sympathetic to leftist ideas and highly skeptical of woke identity politics, including the aversion to accepting a label that keeps coming up here.

Mona Pereth wrote:

Here is an ad for a book of his, How Elites Ate the Social Justice Movement, about the co-optation of leftist movements by upper middle class folks. The book is described as follows:

Quote:

An eye-opening exploration of American policy reform, or lack thereof, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement and how the country can do better in the future.

In 2020, while the Covid-19 pandemic raged, the United States was hit by a ripple of political discontent the likes of which had not been seen since the 1960s. The spark was the viral video of the horrific police murder of an unarmed Black man in Minneapolis. The killing of George Floyd galvanized a nation already reeling from Covid and a toxic political cycle. Tens of thousands poured into the streets to protest. Major corporations and large nonprofit groups—institutions that are usually resolutely apolitical—raced to join in. The fervor for racial justice intersected with the already simmering demands for change from the #MeToo movement and for economic justice from Gen Z. The entire country suddenly seemed to be roaring for change in one voice.

Then nothing much happened.

In How Elites Ate the Social Justice Movement, Fredrik deBoer explores why these passionate movements failed and how they could succeed in the future. In the digital age, social movements flare up but then lose steam through a lack of tangible goals, the inherent moderating effects of our established institutions and political parties, and the lack of any real grassroots movement in contemporary America. Hidden beneath the rhetoric of the oppressed and the symbolism of the downtrodden lies the inconvenient fact that those doing the organizing, messaging, protesting, and campaigning are predominantly drawn from this country’s more upwardly mobile educated classes. Poses are more important than policies.

DeBoer lays out an alternative vision for how society’s winners can contribute to social justice movements without taking them over, and how activists and their organizations can become more resistant to the influence of elites, nonprofits, corporations, and political parties. Only by organizing around class rather than empty gestures can we begin the hard work of changing minds and driving policy.

In a similar vein, in the article Identity politics is a game the left can’t win, he makes a typical Marxist argument that the Left needs to focus on socio-economic class much more than it currently does.

Yes, I own that book, I preordered it, along with his last one.

Mona Pereth wrote:

A couple of other articles of his that I found interesting:

- Some Principles & Observations About Social Justice Politics
- You Can't Censor Away Extremism (or Any Other Problem)

Try these:

https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/planet-of-cops

https://medium.com/@jesse.singal/the-ir ... 3c42c246af

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06 Nov 2023, 7:20 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

The "classic definition"? You mean like, the way it was used by French socialists in the 19th century to describe white European ethno-nationalists, or is there some earlier meaning you're referring to here?

No, I mean like the way the word was generally understood up until about 10 years ago, when woke types hijacked it to make it apply only to their enemies and never their allies.

MushroomPrincess wrote:

Traditionally, "racist" has always meant white ethno-nationalist. As a white man you should be well aware that if somebody calls you a racist (which, judging by your obsession with that word, I'm assuming happens quite often), that's what they mean.

One, completely false, the word refers to bigots of any kind (hence the term "racist" and not "white supremacist") and you're either incredibly uninformed or completely brainwashed if you think otherwise, and two, I only really get called a racist by morons online, and even then only by the dumbest ones who didn't do their due diligence on me.

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11 Nov 2023, 9:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:

MushroomPrincess wrote:

No, I mean like the way the word was generally understood up until about 10 years ago, when woke types hijacked it to make it apply only to their enemies and never their allies.

MushroomPrincess wrote:

Traditionally, "racist" has always meant white ethno-nationalist. [...]

Different people, in different subcultures, use the word "racism" in different ways. And this has been true for a very long time; it's not new as of about 10 years ago.

Since at least the 1970's and probably earlier, at least in my experience, nearly all leftists have always used the word "racism" to refer specifically to the reinforcement of an already-existing racial hierarchy. (Thus, groups like the Nation of Islam were not called "racist" but instead were criticized for being "racially prejudiced," "Black nationalist," or "Black supremacist," and were especially criticized for their singling out of Jews in particular.)

What's new as of about 10 years ago is that the left has become much more visible than it used to be, thanks to social media. Thus, leftist terminology has become more commonplace than it used to be.

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12 Nov 2023, 9:13 am

Fnord wrote:

Being "Woke" is really nothing more than being aware of one's own prejudices and striving to eliminate them, while also being aware of racist/sexist history and its effect on culture and society. We have been over THIS many times, too.

No wokeness is merely the politically allowable term for the dark shadow of feminism. As feminists don't tolerate any criticism of their ideology or it's effects upon society the term woke takes it's place. You can criticise woke, but not the feminists who are the woke as that would be a criticism of feminists, which is not allowed.

Any criticism of feminism or feminists, is misogyny. Even though most of them are male. Go figure, I don't make the rules.

It's a bit like criticising religion. Anything which had good effects was considered Christian and moral. Bad effects or corruption, the dark shadow, were not politically allowable speech, until protestantism gathered steam, and their critics burnt as heretics or devil worshippers.

Same thing, just a different age.

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12 Nov 2023, 10:01 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

So, you feel that anyone who feels insulted by your choice of terminology, or who disagrees with your belief that your terminology is clearer and more precise than it actually is, at least to people who don't share your frame of reference, is just wasting your time and complaining about it in bad faith?

Well yes.

Maybe i'm being a bit overly autistic in my social media interaction however arguing with feminists, or worse male feminists, is generally a complete waste of your time. I could easily write a computer script which replied to every post as either being racist, sexist or homophobic, I doubt many people could tell that it was a script rather than the usual mode of interaction with such. Would this be very clever AI or merely the dumbing down of the human spirit to such an extent that a glorified toaster could replicate it?

A religiously derived belief in critical theory is purposefully designed to insulate the devotee from any counter argument, they are trained to dismiss, disparage and slander. The goal of critical theory is not to win an argument, merely to make the argument boring and toxic to follow.

Certainly in real life situations I've learned to avoid such people. The only inevitable result of socialising with them is damage to your own reputation. Looking at the demographic statistics this seems to be a widespread phenomena. You either get the slave mentality
of the minimum wage guttersnipe or the over privileged permanently offended lonely cat enthusiast, both of whom could be accurately modelled by a very simple computer script. So it's not as though you're going to miss out on anything interesting or exciting.

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12 Nov 2023, 10:41 am

Well I'd like to say it's been an interesting discussion. Can't really though.

Maybe not a good introduction to the an autism forum as mostly it seems to be certain people trying to redefine a word which is both in extremely common usage and is aptly descriptive. One indeed which has spawned a powerful political force. One which is understood by the masses.

If I meet somebody who is woke I fell icky, there's a clammy unpleasantness about them as though you are constantly walking upon eggshells around them. This is the common experience people have with the woke, I know as I've asked them. I've never had to define woke to them, they know exactly what it means and who it applies to.

Maybe I'm confused though as I cannot ever recall meeting a fellow autist who I felt was woke. Many who I suspected were borderline personality disorder types or similar, but not autists.

I associate autists with being stoic freethinkers with a passion for fine detail and strong moral values. I've never felt uncomfortable around an autist, even one I passionately disagreed with. Often we have disagreements over literality, though not due to the obtuse misuse or inappropriate redefining of words.

Woke is a word which is here to stay though I have some trouble believing that any or many autistic people find it offensive towards themselves.

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12 Nov 2023, 3:05 pm

Spinflight wrote:

Maybe i'm being a bit overly autistic in my social media interaction however arguing with feminists, or worse male feminists, is generally a complete waste of your time. I could easily write a computer script which replied to every post as either being racist, sexist or homophobic, I doubt many people could tell that it was a script rather than the usual mode of interaction with such. Would this be very clever AI or merely the dumbing down of the human spirit to such an extent that a glorified toaster could replicate it?

It's funny you say this, given that very similar could be fairly said about anti-sjw/antiwoke types. Most of them appear to share one brain cell and it's never their turn with it while they are sharing their (consistently under-informed) opinions. Most of them could easily be an AI outrage script with no actual intelligence behind it.

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13 Nov 2023, 9:48 am

Well then cupcake feel free to follow my example and avoid any antiwoke / antiSJW types you see on the street. I can tell cucks and feminists by their behaviour very quickly, if not their blue hair / lack of a chin etc. Maybe 'us' types have three arms or all wear purple, who knows?

Enjoy your cats.

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13 Nov 2023, 10:43 am

Spinflight wrote:

Well I'd like to say it's been an interesting discussion. Can't really though.
Maybe not a good introduction to the an autism forum

The Politics, Philosophy and Religion section probably isn't the best starting point for the average newcomer, though I guess it depends how much they enjoy pissing contests such as the ones that have infected this thread.

Quote:

as mostly it seems to be certain people trying to redefine a word which is both in extremely common usage and is aptly descriptive. One indeed which has spawned a powerful political force. One which is understood by the masses.

Not sure what you mean. How do you define it?

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13 Nov 2023, 1:46 pm

Spinflight wrote:

Well then cupcake feel free to follow my example and avoid any antiwoke / antiSJW types you see on the street.

It's cowardly to slink away from an inferior foe, especially the sorts who can dish it out but can't take it.

It's ironic that the same folks who feel the need to call their opponents cucks and soyboys are also so thin-skinned and easily offended. There's no room for discourse with people who are operate on that level, supposing they're even capable of it. For guys who love to portray themselves as paragons of masculinity they consistently demonstrate a lack of the same traits they proclaim as masculine.

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13 Nov 2023, 9:46 pm

Spinflight wrote:

No wokeness is merely the politically allowable term for the dark shadow of feminism.

Huh????

Some articles on the actual history of the word "woke":

- A history of “wokeness”: "Stay woke: How a Black activist watchword got co-opted in the culture war," by Aja Romano, Vox, Oct 9, 2020.
- Woke - Wikipedia
- What does the word 'woke' really mean, and where does it come from? by Domenico Montanaro, NPR, July 19, 2023.

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13 Nov 2023, 10:16 pm

Spinflight wrote:

Maybe I'm confused though as I cannot ever recall meeting a fellow autist who I felt was woke. Many who I suspected were borderline personality disorder types or similar, but not autists.

There are plenty of autistic people, including people in this very forum, who could be called "woke," at least by some people.

By the way, you should probably read the forum rules if you have not done so already.

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14 Nov 2023, 7:24 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Spinflight wrote:

Well then cupcake feel free to follow my example and avoid any antiwoke / antiSJW types you see on the street.

It's cowardly to slink away from an inferior foe, especially the sorts who can dish it out but can't take it.

The woke, otherwise known as feminists of either sex, are toxic. Appalling people to be around, why on earth would I volunteer for that?

Can't say that I understand why any reasonable person would consider that to enshrine a lack of bravery or masculine values. You either have values or you don't so helping and supporting, being friends with, those who have toxic values would be the epitome of stupidity and self harm, not bravery.

As for woke autists, never in my experience. Though some borderlines may be misdiagnosed I guess.

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14 Nov 2023, 8:06 am

opposing feminism in 2023 is not a good look my guy

Also, I've been professionally diagnosed and am full of raving wokery.

I think it's interesting that such a small percentage of autists are anti-woke. Autism usually, at least in my experience, lets one see past the norms of society, to realize they can be who they want to be. on the other hand, right wingers are often uninformed and illiterate in media because they take everything at face value, a somewhat autistic trait.

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14 Nov 2023, 10:01 am

Spinflight wrote:

As for woke autists, never in my experience. Though some borderlines may be misdiagnosed I guess.

Well, I could be described as woke, and I've got enough ASD traits to qualify for that label too. And you've "met" me, if online counts as meeting. Of course it depends on what you mean by woke. You seem to think it means feminist, which is the strangest definition I've seen yet, but even accepting it as correct, I'm feminist-of-centre at least. If you take the more right-wing definition (woke=ridiculously extreme and dogmatic about political correctness), you may have a point though. I still go for original definition of woke, though I broaden it from "awareness of racism" to "class conscious" where by class I mean any group that's getting treated as less or more important than the average. I could probably refine those definitions, but I like to be quick-and-dirty when I'm busy.

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