I'm sick of young Americans obsessing over communism!

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Nades
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13 Dec 2023, 11:17 am

belijojo wrote:

Nades wrote:

This is completely different to people who are genuinely down on their luck and living in poverty though.

I have this understanding: the people who create the most value do not get the most money. Does this phenomenon exist in your regime? If not, I support the mainstream thinking of your regime, which guides more successful practices

Broadly speaking yes. Doctors, engineers, police officers, teachers, all get paid fairly decently. In the UK the variables of all jobs seem to *mostly* be taken account of when it comes to the paycheck.

Value is a very tricky thing to guage once unskilled work is factored in though. Cleaners and shelf stackers are essential but how far can you go with pay when entry requirements are zero?

Readydaer
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13 Dec 2023, 11:29 am

Nades wrote:

I hope you're not of the opinion that the Red Scare was actually a good thing that somehow bolsters the stance that communism is good because views like that are worrying.

Sorry I forgot to quote. That comment was for Readydaer

no the red scare was bad because it did lasting damage to communism in the west; even nowadays, shown in this very thread, there are people instinctually opposed to it because of the propaganda lasting a hundred years, without knowing the facts, nor how communism actually works.

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Nades
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13 Dec 2023, 11:32 am

Readydaer wrote:

Nades wrote:

So you supported the Russians during the Red scare?

Last edited by Nades on 13 Dec 2023, 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Readydaer
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13 Dec 2023, 11:33 am

just so i'm being honest about my opinions regarding this: yes, I am biased towards Marxism and support it, because I've seen and understood the failures of capitalism and believe that this system cannot be improved, only replaced, and I believe a socialist and eventually communist society would be the best option to achieve this.

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funeralxempire
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13 Dec 2023, 4:40 pm

Nades wrote:

Cleaners and shelf stackers are essential but how far can you go with pay when entry requirements are zero?

How far can society go when they all don't show up for work?

People act like some jobs don't deserve to pay a living wage but they'd whine if suddenly no one does that job and it impacts them.

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roronoa79
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13 Dec 2023, 5:31 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:

I don't understand how these young people can say that the current system concentrates too much power into the hands of too few people and then advocate for a system that concentrates even more power into the hands of even fewer people.

For the thousandth time I somehow need to point out that many if not most communists/socialists/syndicalists are also anarchists. We desire a society without a coercive state where people cooperate economically and engage in voluntary democracy. Capitalism needs the State to survive and vice versa. To destroy one, you must destroy the other. "Small government" capitalists and an-caps never seem to realize that the wealthy will never allow the destruction of the state, because the wealthy are dependent on state violence to maintain the current distribution of wealth.

The conversation usually goes like this:
Capitalist: Leftists are such naive statists! When will they learn that the government is a detriment to society?
Most Leftists: Actually, I am an anarchist as well as a socialist/communist/whathaveyou.
Capitalist: Are you insane?!?! We NEED the government! Humans are too stupid and evil to survive without the state! The State is our friend! The State keeps us safe! Someone call the police so the State can save me from these dangerous anti-statists!

Popular understanding of socialism and communism is based on a hyper fixation on authoritarian iterations of socialism, and not at all on the many anarchist and minarchist schools of leftist thought. Because that runs contrary to what the Capitalist State wants you to think.

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roronoa79
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13 Dec 2023, 5:52 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Nades wrote:

Cleaners and shelf stackers are essential but how far can you go with pay when entry requirements are zero?

How far can society go when they all don't show up for work?

People act like some jobs don't deserve to pay a living wage but they'd whine if suddenly no one does that job and it impacts them.

We are still just peasants to them. It used to be that we deserved to be paid so little because the nobles said so--and the nobles control the peasants by virtue of God's will. Once that narrative lost popularity, it became: we deserve to be paid so little because the bosses said so--and the bosses control the workers by virtue of the market's will.
It's using fancy words and econo-speak to try and sound like a complex, nuanced thinker when really "The market is a meritocracy" boils down to "Life is fair". So forgive me if I struggle to believe I am naive when I am told so by the oh so very un-naive "Life is fair; work hard and all your dreams can come true; the status quo should be so because it is so" crowd.

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13 Dec 2023, 9:56 pm

Readydaer wrote:

. . . capitalism is so oppressing and all-encompassing that they have no choice.

Capitalism is no more oppressive than any Maoist/Stalinist state -- much less so, in fact.

Readydaer wrote:

Also, it's interesting when people say "socialism has failed" and "communism has failed" because they never elaborate on what they mean by failing. did the roman empire fail? what about ancient Egypt? what about some of the middle east? have they all failed due to their countries' partial dissolutions?

Apples and oranges. Failure is dissolution of either the Communist State itself, or the Communist ideology within it. Soviet Communism failed, even though Russia and its Bloc countries may still exist.

Readydaer wrote:

if you want to argue that communism has failed you need to apply a consistent standard of success and failure.

I already have: "Does an erstwhile Communist country still have currency and a governing body?" If so, then Communism has failed within that country. "Has an erstwhile Communist country devolved into a feudal regime, State Socialism, and/or a despotic dictatorship?" If so, then Communism has failed within that country. Muddling up these simple terms with your distractions and personal opinions does not change one simple fact: Communism doesn't work.

(Note: Edited by Fnord to correct verb tense.)

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Last edited by Fnord on 14 Dec 2023, 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

belijojo
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13 Dec 2023, 11:05 pm

Nades wrote:

belijojo wrote:

Nades wrote:

This is completely different to people who are genuinely down on their luck and living in poverty though.

Considering the peculiarity of Britain: the royal family is allowed to exist in a capitalist society, I support your idea that non-violent reform is possible, as has happened in the past

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belijojo
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13 Dec 2023, 11:33 pm

Fnord wrote:

I already have: "Does an erstwhile Communist country still have currency and a governing body?" If not, then Communism has failed within that country. "Has an erstwhile Communist country devolved into a feudal regime, State Socialism, and/or a despotic dictatorship?" If so, then Communism has failed within that country. Muddling up these simple terms with your distractions and personal opinions does not change one simple fact: Communism doesn't work.

Just because previous attempts have failed does not mean that the guiding ideology is wrong.
The fact that the feudal system existed in Europe from the 9th to the 19th century does not mean that it could not end in the 15th century, nor does it mean that all resistance movements in the 15th century were wrong.
We rush to propose a socialist system in order to reduce resistance when the next revolution comes.
As for promoting social development, I admit that capitalism has made great achievements, but I am just talking about how the huge improvement of people's thinking can promote social development without taking real action.

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Fnord
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14 Dec 2023, 12:54 am

belijojo wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Just because previous attempts have failed does not mean that the guiding ideology is wrong.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Just how many more times must Communism fail before you will accept it as an untenable ideology?

Even in your own country (PRC), 'Communism' is a mere label while the reality is State Socialism under a Feudal Empire.

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techstepgenr8tion
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14 Dec 2023, 1:03 am

So a lot of people go through life simply licking their finger, sticking it in the air, finding out what's popular, and doing whatever that is. The goal isn't even truth, it's to play popularity like the stock-market (ie. status hacking). Most of them have probably never heard of Gulag Archipelago or 'Cannibal Island'.

I think a lot of these people are algorithmic social climbers, to the point that it often vastly overshadows anything in them resembling a developed human personality. We have to then consider how it is that we keep a system going with so many people throwing the spirit of anything over their shoulder immediately to always seek 'What's the fastest way to beat everyone else with this?'.

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funeralxempire
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14 Dec 2023, 1:09 am

@belijojo: that's a funny avatar :lol:

Fnord wrote:

belijojo wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Just because previous attempts have failed does not mean that the guiding ideology is wrong.

Every economy is a mixed economy in practice. It's just a matter of how they're mixed.

Since communism is only the carrot that keeps the CPC in power, and the CPC remains in power, it seems to be working rather well for them.

But, your metaphor about trying the same thing isn't applicable, because each of the dozens of flavours each has their own ideas of how to achieve what they're after, how to structure it, etc that it's pretty clear that communists can't agree on what to try well enough to keep trying the same thing over and over again. They try different things under the same label.

Some topics require more than thought terminating rhetoric to discuss. Thought-terminating clichés are great for looking condescending, but not for making a point.

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14 Dec 2023, 1:27 am

Fnord wrote:

The king's supporters said the same to the revolutionaries
Identifying a theoretically feasible solution and executing it repeatedly is a noble virtue.
I respect your pursuit of life and orderly competition, and I basically agree with the moderate policy of change.
I want society to go into overdrive and I want no conservatives on the road to the future.
Capitalism is still viable today, in a world of physical and mental work. At the same time, the gap between rich and poor, claiming that the poor are lazy is a manifestation of its bad nature, just like someone had to be enslaved in feudal times.
It's understandable that I benefit from free markets while opposing wealth inequality. You benefit from capitalism, and I don’t want to take away all your property from your hands. Extreme average is as unreliable as extreme freedom.
I hope you will have a little compassion when you see the poor and not stand in the way of unions fighting for their rights.
I am too extreme even for my country. "All men are created equal" can incite slaves to wage war, I am also incited by "serve the people"

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belijojo
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14 Dec 2023, 1:35 am

funeralxempire wrote:

@belijojo: that's a funny avatar :lol:

I love it, always lightens the mood and neutralizes my intense opinions

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Fnord
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14 Dec 2023, 4:33 am

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