Are you a Taoists ???

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I seem to remember reading somewhere that Taoism as Lao Tzu explained it is rooted in the I Ching although I cant quote. Am I right in saying it all began with a tortoise shell. One day all this stuff will stay fixed in my head.

Yes, in my book it says that the Shang dynasty (1766-1122 b.c.) used tortoise shells, about things involving the royal court, such as hunts, weather, ceremonies, expeditions, royal enthronements etc… this is why these metaphors from that time are used throughout. The tortoise shell, which is naturally a kind of grid, was heated by fire until cracks appeared and the patterns of cracks were read. They’re also called “Cowrie shells” throughout the book, I don’t know if that means they used another kind of shell or not? Or it might be another word for tortoise shell.

The Zhou dynasty (1122-221 b.c.) used yarrow sticks. The writer of my book says you can use anything, he came up with a system of using gemstones for instance, while imprisoned. He was in jail in China for 22 years during which he was interrogated constantly and on constant death sentence. During that time he could not remember the I Ching, but says he remembered the “Tao of I” which is the only thing that got him through those years. I imagine that is referring to a kind of Taoism… I’m not sure.

I don’t really know what the “Tao of I” is actually, I should find out sometime. I’m not sure if its Lao Tzu -I’m not good with history, but it could be something very similar.

To Averick, I did listen to the Art of War on Tape, and yes… well I don’t know if my ears fell asleep or not but I did. I can see how dense and precious it is though, it warrants much much more attention than just listening to it like that – most of it just went over my head and I started drifting away. I should look for it on paper. Its also very political and psychological which are areas I’m not so great with, but it is very profound, from the bits I did glean. I’ll give it another try if I find the book.

alli cnan say at thi st ime is the universe ia compassionateplace sometimes

To be sparing of speech is natural.

A whirlwind does not last the whole morning,
A downpoar does not last the whole day.
Who causes them?
If heaven and earth cannot cause them to persist,
how much less can human beings?

Therefore,
In persuing his affairs,
a man of the Way identifies with the Way,
a man of integrity identifies with integrity,
a man who fails identifies with failure.

To him who identifies with integrity,
the Way awards integrity;
To him who identifies with failure,
the Way awards failure.

If I may impose again with more opinions... (not very taoist i know!) I think, as the resident Taoist, it would be so lovely if you should start a new topic, called something like, "Post something Zen…" or "post a Taoist passage," That way people can just post beautiful Zen passages like you just did and not feel the need to talk about it or debate it etc… its probobly the best way to appreciate its philosopy


If someone asks
About this monk's mind
Say: "The letter is arriving
in his letter -
The wind that races through the
great sky"


- Taigu Ryokan

The Tao Te Ching is one of the most interesting books I have read? It is consistent with modern science (I mean sub-atomic particle physics). It provides a basis for a healthy and rewarding life. Though it reflects the beliefs of aboriginal peoples and inspired Zen Buddhism, it is not Buddhjsm, and it is certainly not Confucionism. I don;t know what the poster of the commonts on Confuciou thought. but excessive order and regulation are not a part of Taoist philosophy.

"The more laws and restrictions there are, the poorer people become (Chapter 57, Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English Translation, 1972)

Nory, why don't you start this thread? I would add.

Yeah, not many people know that the Tao predates both Confucianism and Buddhism. I dated a guy once who was a buddist monk for a couple years and the religion is so intricate and has so many rules and proverbs... yikes! I tried to absorb some of it, and it was just all so obtuse to me because of the simpler nature of Christianity and my former religious convictions. I look at the Tao and I'm like, "Whoa, this is so much more meaningful to me." I can reread the Tao over and over, and ponder about it differently and grasp different meanings. It doesn't really hinder the "philosophically burnt" or those who still want meaning to life.

Ok, done, but it totally looks like I'm stealing your idea... poor me.

Averick did someone leave monkhood for you?! !

Lol, no. He was living in Vietnam for two years exercising his demons, and when he got bored (tired of living like a pauper) he moved back here for the states, and I met him then.

I'll tell you what though, he was one of the most perverted monks!! Also, quite the manipulator. He sort of gave Buddhism a bad name. He used the religion to make others feel like he was something special. I was entraced for a while, then I realized he was a bad buddhist.

My friend in India used to be very cynical about Tibetan Buddhism because she said she saw their monks selling drugs, and I was crushed, but then I thought well maybe drug dealers are dressing up like monks to make their job easier?

But I know now being monk is no sign of purity, a lot of collectives depending on what they are nests of hidden sexual, financial and emotional exploitation to its more powerful members. I read a book called “The Holy Longing” about being a spiritual seeker in the worlds traditions, in which a whole chapter was devoted to the pall over religion and spirituality that corrupt priests, monks, teachers etc… have cast, and there’s big organizations now dedicated to picking up the pieces left by their “spiritual abuse.” Something about being in that situation can lead to abusive behavior, I’m really not for the whole guru thing, or student/teacher dynamics in anything involving spirituality. I guess your guy got caught up in that and it went to his head.

To her, it can be deluded Ego, or like they feel their prayers or quest for enlightenment to God have been unanswered or they did not get what they were looking for, or look too closely at their inner darkness, so they take it out on others. Or they’re there because they’re looking for vulnerable people. She writes about how for some people, just hearing about abusive behavior in their chosen spiritual leader can be devastating, to their sense of self and their god etc…

She writes:

"If teachers are charismatic...but do not know how to work with their own egos and shadows, their effects will be mixed: transmission of knowledge...alongside transmission of shadow with resulting devastation..."


Thanks for posting the poem, LOVED it.

Thanks, Averick, for starting thie forum and keeping it going.

Thanks to all who read and contributed.

Thanks to all who shared a favorite translation. I love Steven Mitchell, but my favorite is Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English, Vintage books, 1972.

Yes, there is a relationship between the Tao and the unknown virtual reality of quantum mechanics. There is a book called "The Tao of Physics" (Fritz Capra, 1975). Those interested in the relationship between Taoism and science might enjoy Gary Zukov's "The Dancing Wu Li Masters"

Cool Bobby, I'll check them out.

To Nory,
you mentioned the book "the holy longing" and also you mentioned organizations picking up the pieces of people damaged by bad religious experiences. I count myself among their number, I got caught up in a cult style drug rehabilitation program a few years ago and am pretty messed up now. Could you give more details about the book and the organizations please. The Dao is the first thing I've found since that doesn't hurt me more. Lao Tzu was a sound human being.

Thanks, I agree with you, Taoism is definitely the antidote to “spiritual” power mongers. I also think humor is important, and having ones own spirituality and keeping it to oneself, not having it part of a collective.

The book is by Connie Zweig, Whole title is: The Holy Longing: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Yearning. Its published by Penguin Putnam, 2003.

It makes me so mad that such a group would affiliate themselves with drug rehabilitation. That’s one of the tactics scientology uses as well, under various cover names, they set up drug, alcohol, depression rehabilitation centers and exploit people in a very calculating way.

I’m not sure what kind of resource would benefit you. I googled “spiritual abuse” you’ll find a lot that way. The problem is a lot of it is affiliated with major religions which seek to debunk the more damaging, fringe ones, they are set up by Ministries, ministers or other institutions, they seem very good intentioned but I don’t know if that is what you want. I think this is a good summary, but again I’m not sure if you are alright with another religious affiliation or not of any kind: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kEmzqb8_oig

Especially since it can still happen in conventional groups too, any group I think, or individuals – so I can’t recommend anything because I don’t know anything about them or their intentions. The rehabilitation centers and organizations usually have a belief system or are psychological, so it depends on what you are believing in right now or trust and the same with the therapy.

What kind of doctrine or spirituality was your group using? I think the kind of recourse you need to find depends on that too.

This has an online copy of a books about the subject, and links, I haven’t read the books so can’t vouch for it:
http://www.spiritwatch.org/relabuse.htm

You can join SOSA, for Survivors of Spiritual Abuse: http://www.sosa.org/

I forgot to add, how very sorry I am that something like this happened to you. This world is crazy.