Criteria for evidence of a God.

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Fraya
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11 Dec 2008, 11:59 am

skafather84 wrote:

Fraya wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

that's one hell of a cynical worldview.

I think it's more realism than cynicism.

It's not really a matter of attitude, opinion or worldview to point out the fact that the vast majority of acts of kindness have selfish motivations that's just the way people are.

when you say "that's just the way people are" what you really mean is "that's just the way i am". quit projecting. it sounds more like you want an excuse to not have to reciprocate any kindness to anyone else but hidden behind teenage angst.

The science of game theory is based on the immutable truth that every act even kindness can be traced back to some self serving motive of the actor. If altruism wasn't so rare it wouldn't work at all.

I'm sorry that the truth troubles you so much that you feel the need to attack me in order to preserve your rose colored world but I'm not going to insult your intelligence by lying and saying you are correct.

Just as a demonstration can you name even one unnecessary act of kindness that you have performed that benefited you in no way at all?

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slowmutant
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11 Dec 2008, 1:00 pm

I'll have to agree with skafather on this one. That is one hell of cynical worldview.

Fraya
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11 Dec 2008, 1:08 pm

slowmutant wrote:

I'll have to agree with skafather on this one. That is one hell of cynical worldview.

*sigh* Telling then truth when it's unpleasant isn't cynicism.

I suppose saying studies show that 1 in 23 people display sociopathic traits is being cynical to you as well.

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One pill makes you larger
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And the ones that mother gives you
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Awesomelyglorious
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11 Dec 2008, 1:11 pm

Fraya wrote:

The difference is that unlike religion; history, science and just about everything else you can independently verify through your own experiments and research.

Religion is the only thing you have to believe without proof. In almost everything else you have a choice.

What about apologetics? Couldn't apologetic arguments be *possibly* taken as valid?

Awesomelyglorious
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11 Dec 2008, 1:13 pm

slowmutant wrote:

I'll have to agree with skafather on this one. That is one hell of cynical worldview.

I find it reasonable. There is little reason to suspect that people are nice, kind or generous. I tend to side with Niccolo Machiavelli in conceiving human nature.

Haliphron
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11 Dec 2008, 1:18 pm

slowmutant wrote:

If there ever was a faith-healer who shied away public performances, who was not interested in money or fame or personal glory ... that person would be the real deal. Televangelists are all frauds. Do they not make a total mockery of what ministry is supposed to be?

Religion is in fact, an incredibly effective way to get your hands on other peoples money. THAT is why telelvangelism worked so well for a while.Nonetheless, if I had personal, direct contact with G-D I would not have any need to prove it to others.

NocturnalQuilter
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11 Dec 2008, 2:00 pm

Fraya wrote:

Just as a demonstration can you name even one unnecessary act of kindness that you have performed that benefited you in no way at all?

Yes- every single day.
Every time I hold a door open for someone else (man or woman), just because.
Every time I pick up something someone else dropped, just because.
Every time I say, "have a nice day" to the server or cashier and actually mean it.
The toys I dropped off at the Fire Station (Toys For Tots) even though I'm being laid off on the 19th.
No receipt, no tax deduction, no recognition or plaque with my name on it. Just because.

What are you doing; what act(s) of kidness are you performing just because you can?
If you can't answer this, then you aren't trying hard enough.

NocturnalQuilter
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11 Dec 2008, 2:05 pm

As for this whole ridiculous thread I only have to add:

True "evidence" of god is inside each of us. As all external clues can easily be refutted by the cynicism of a secular mind, absolute proof can only be found inside the spirit of (wo)man.
If you are looking inside yourself and feel no evidence of god, then you need only invite him in.

Fraya
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11 Dec 2008, 2:20 pm

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Every time I hold a door open for someone else (man or woman), just because.

If you didn't they wouldn't do the same for you in the future. So you benefit.

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Every time I pick up something someone else dropped, just because.

A common "good deed" that makes the person indebted to you slightly and improves your social image. So you benefit.

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Every time I say, "have a nice day" to the server or cashier and actually mean it.

You might actually have something there you gained nothing (or sacrificed anything) and neither did the cashier so was it really a kindness?

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

The toys I dropped off at the Fire Station (Toys For Tots) even though I'm being laid off on the 19th.

It makes you feel good. So you benefit.

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

What are you doing; what act(s) of kidness are you performing just because you can?

I was walking home through an empty park the other night and noticed trash on the ground. I spent an hour cleaning the place up on a whim knowing I was wasting my time and it would just be messed up again by morning then continued walked home. I gained nothing and lost an hour of my time and risked my health for no reason. Altruism is almost always pointless and self destructive. That's why it's rare.

_________________
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
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"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane

Fraya
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11 Dec 2008, 2:29 pm

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

True "evidence" of god is inside each of us.
If you are looking inside yourself and feel no evidence of god, then you need only invite him in.

So the old "the evidence is over there if you can't see it it's your fault" cop out.

_________________
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
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"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane

NocturnalQuilter
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11 Dec 2008, 2:47 pm

Fraya wrote:

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Every time I hold a door open for someone else (man or woman), just because.

If you didn't they wouldn't do the same for you in the future. So you benefit. This assumption benefits no one. FAIL

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Every time I pick up something someone else dropped, just because.

A common "good deed" that makes the person indebted to you slightly and improves your social image. So you benefit. What "social image" could I possibly have to a stranger? FAIL

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Every time I say, "have a nice day" to the server or cashier and actually mean it.

You might actually have something there you gained nothing (or sacrificed anything) and neither did the cashier so was it really a kindness? I think so. How often do we all respond to the obligatory, "have a nice day" but don't really think about it nor mean what we say when we respond, "thanks, you too"?

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

The toys I dropped off at the Fire Station (Toys For Tots) even though I'm being laid off on the 19th.

It makes you feel good. So you benefit. I could argue the same in response to your statement below:

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

What are you doing; what act(s) of kidness are you performing just because you can?

Couldn't it be argued that you gained a sense of pride from cleaning up your surroundings? A sense of satisfaction?

It is often said, and I believe 100% in it's truth:
It is not what you give, how much you give or to whom you give, but the spirit in which you give.
I don't hold doors open, help a neighbor or give to charity because I am bolstering my ego. I do those things because it is simply the right thing to do.
I donate anywhere from 10 to 40 hours per month to 2 local charities (AHA and the local G&L Association). I don't get recognition, or put in the papers or get plaques or medals. I do get a personal sense of fullfillment in doing what I can for my community; participating not from a place of obligation, but from a place of caring. I don't consider that a selffish motivation but an honest one.

BTW: You weren't wasting your time cleaning the park. I think that was time well-spent. And you never know- you may have inspired someone else to do the same. Perhaps not in the same park but else where.

Last edited by NocturnalQuilter on 11 Dec 2008, 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

NocturnalQuilter
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11 Dec 2008, 2:48 pm

Fraya wrote:

So the old "the evidence is over there if you can't see it it's your fault" cop out.

And this is why you will never see it.
You don't want to.

Fraya
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11 Dec 2008, 3:09 pm

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Couldn't it be argued that you gained a sense of pride from cleaning up your surroundings? A sense of satisfaction?

It could be argued but that wasn't the case.

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

I don't hold doors open, help a neighbor or give to charity because I am bolstering my ego. I do those things because it is simply the right thing to do.

So moral obligation.

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

I donate anywhere from 10 to 40 hours per month to 2 local charities (AHA and the local G&L Association). I don't get recognition, or put in the papers or get plaques or medals. I do get a personal sense of fullfillment in doing what I can for my community; participating not from a place of obligation, but from a place of caring. I don't consider that a selffish motivation but an honest one.

A lot of times people aren't aware of their motivations. Self deceit is the most common kind.

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

BTW: You weren't wasting your time cleaning the park. I think that was time well-spent. And you never know- you may have inspired someone else to do the same. Perhaps not in the same park but else where.

Perhaps.

My point though is that altruism is doing something that does more harm than grants benefit to yourself in order for others to gain.

It's basically temporary insanity and not a normal thing. The normal thing is to make sacrifices if you stand to gain something more valuable not less valuable than what your giving up.

If altruism was common the species would have sacrificed itself into extinction a long time ago.

_________________
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
-----------
"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane

NocturnalQuilter
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11 Dec 2008, 3:11 pm

^ I'm sorry you choose to feel that way.

Fraya
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11 Dec 2008, 3:12 pm

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

Fraya wrote:

So the old "the evidence is over there if you can't see it it's your fault" cop out.

And this is why you will never see it.
You don't want to.

I do I'm just not going to buy that I have to be a true believer in order to see the evidence it would take to make me a true believer.

Once you've got what you wanted, another person blindly obeying and giving your church money what reason do you have to pay me what you owe?

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

^ I'm sorry you choose to feel that way.

And I'm sorry you have apparently chosen delusions over reality. I tried.

_________________
One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
-----------
"White Rabbit" - Jefferson Airplane

NocturnalQuilter
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11 Dec 2008, 3:17 pm

Fraya wrote:

I do I'm just not going to buy that I have to be a true believer in order to see the evidence it would take to make me a true believer.

Where faith is concerned, there are two types of people: Those that need to see to believe, and those that need to believe to see.

Fraya wrote:

Once you've got what you wanted, another person blindly obeying and giving your church money what reason do you have to pay me what you owe?

I'm not sure what this means, where it came from or what it has to do with faith and belief in god.

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