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God is Evil

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MrLoony
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23 Jun 2009, 3:43 pm

Sand wrote:
Magnus wrote:
If you don't see a difference between good and evil then that is just dumb. Good is being kind and making others happy and so forth. Evil is inflicting suffering on something. Why is this so complicated?


Because what makes some people happy makes others miserable.


Which is why net gain needs to be taken into account.

HOWEVER! Some things, even though the net gain would otherwise be positive, are actually negative, for example: If a group of kids are bullying another kid, the net gain is negative because the enjoyment they achieve from that is actually not only detrimental to the kid being bullied, but to them as well. Additionally, their enjoyment is fleeting (is not actual happiness, nor does it contribute to happiness), whereas the effect on the bullied can have lasting detrimental effects.


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Magnus
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25 Jun 2009, 7:36 pm

Suffering through learning is pretty universal. Why does it have to be? If we compare an ideal to the concrete, we must ask, where do our ideals come from?


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Sand
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25 Jun 2009, 9:02 pm

Magnus wrote:
Suffering through learning is pretty universal. Why does it have to be? If we compare an ideal to the concrete, we must ask, where do our ideals come from?


Some ideals come from a misinterpretation of the nature of reality and its possibilities. I don't suffer through learning, it liberates me.



phil777
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25 Jun 2009, 10:42 pm

"Suffering through learning is pretty universal. Why does it have to be?"

Reminds me of that quote from Alfred in Batman Begins.. "Why do we fall down? So we can learn to pick ourselves up."



Sand
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26 Jun 2009, 5:23 am

It seems to me she meant learning through suffering which is quite a different matter.



ruveyn
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26 Jun 2009, 12:51 pm

Magnus wrote:
Suffering through learning is pretty universal. Why does it have to be? If we compare an ideal to the concrete, we must ask, where do our ideals come from?


It is more like learning through suffering.

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Magnus
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27 Jun 2009, 4:32 pm

Learning through suffering and suffering through learning is liberating when the desired outcome is reached. How do we suffer if we came from a world which is based upon suffering as a means to an end. Life feeds on life and death is inevitable. How is it then that humans can have ideals in their imagination that defies this law of nature?

How can we say that nothing exists beyond this world and yet compare our ideals that do not come from this world? How have we managed to formulate our ideals to begin with? If all we are is what we are from the material source of this world, then we should be happy with the way things are and not get upset when disaster strikes. Therefore, I am suggesting that we have a memory of something far greater than anything that can come from the earthly realm.


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Henriksson
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27 Jun 2009, 5:18 pm

Magnus wrote:
How can we say that nothing exists beyond this world and yet compare our ideals that do not come from this world? How have we managed to formulate our ideals to begin with?

By that reasoning, Lord of the Rings is actually a true story.


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claire-333
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27 Jun 2009, 5:18 pm

Magnus wrote:
...we have a memory of something far greater than anything that can come from the earthly realm.
Hence wrongplanet? I would not be surprised if more people here than you think can truly understand your statement.



Mike61290
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27 Jun 2009, 10:13 pm

Postperson wrote:
The world is evil, this is satan's world.


god created everything, meaning he created satan, having someone doing your dirtywork so you can stay clean doesn't mean your good ok?


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MrLoony
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27 Jun 2009, 10:37 pm

Mike61290 wrote:
Postperson wrote:
The world is evil, this is satan's world.


god created everything, meaning he created satan, having someone doing your dirtywork so you can stay clean doesn't mean your good ok?


I believe I've stated this before in this thread, but God, in early Judaism, is not the God of good, but rather the God of EVERYTHING. Also, it should be noted that, in current Judeo-Christian belief, Satan began as an archangel who fell because he wanted to be like God. He most certainly was not created to do God's dirty work.


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Magnus
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27 Jun 2009, 10:57 pm

The idea of free will is starting to make more sense now.

The Lord of the Rings may not be a true story, but the archetypes in it are easily identified. William Blake said that God resides in the imagination.
I think that is where we can perceive spiritual natures. All discoveries first take place in the imagination so it (imagination) shouldn't be dismissed as brain misfirings all the time.

Claire agreed with the notion that we do have a sense of some memory of coming from someplace better. I remember always wanting to make the world a better place. That is not a logical thing to want because it doensn't serve me with immediate gratification. In fact, most people who try to make the world a better place get killed or ostracized for being radical. It does seem negative I know, but if you look around at the state of the world, it's not that off the mark. Most of history shows that there are very few happy endings.


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As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

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Sand
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28 Jun 2009, 12:23 am

Magnus wrote:
The idea of free will is starting to make more sense now.

The Lord of the Rings may not be a true story, but the archetypes in it are easily identified. William Blake said that God resides in the imagination.
I think that is where we can perceive spiritual natures. All discoveries first take place in the imagination so it (imagination) shouldn't be dismissed as brain misfirings all the time.

Claire agreed with the notion that we do have a sense of some memory of coming from someplace better. I remember always wanting to make the world a better place. That is not a logical thing to want because it doensn't serve me with immediate gratification. In fact, most people who try to make the world a better place get killed or ostracized for being radical. It does seem negative I know, but if you look around at the state of the world, it's not that off the mark. Most of history shows that there are very few happy endings.


The imagination is not the savior of mankind, it is the creative ground for a multiple of objectives, some possibly beneficial, some horridly destructive. It is in the imagination that all black people, all homosexuals, even all women are basically inferior. It was in the imagination of much of Germany that blond blue eyed Aryans are superior folk. It is in the imagination that most religions offer huge nonsense about rights and wrongs and mythical creatures of the afterlife. The imagination is the constructive ground for creating all sorts of possibilities and only after these inventions are thoroughly tested by reality do they deserve to gain any respect. The imagination is a wonderful playground but its limitations have to be recognized.



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28 Jun 2009, 6:06 am

MrLoony wrote:

I believe I've stated this before in this thread, but God, in early Judaism, is not the God of good, but rather the God of EVERYTHING. Also, it should be noted that, in current Judeo-Christian belief, Satan began as an archangel who fell because he wanted to be like God. He most certainly was not created to do God's dirty work.


The only place where Satan is mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures is an The Book of Job. He does stress testing for G-D.

The fallen angel story is a Christian or Gnostic concoction.

ruveyn



claire-333
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28 Jun 2009, 9:19 am

Sand wrote:
The imagination is not the savior of mankind, it is the creative ground for a multiple of objectives, some possibly beneficial, some horridly destructive. It is in the imagination that all black people, all homosexuals, even all women are basically inferior. It was in the imagination of much of Germany that blond blue eyed Aryans are superior folk. It is in the imagination that most religions offer huge nonsense about rights and wrongs and mythical creatures of the afterlife. The imagination is the constructive ground for creating all sorts of possibilities and only after these inventions are thoroughly tested by reality do they deserve to gain any respect. The imagination is a wonderful playground but its limitations have to be recognized.
The Lord of the Rings is a story of good and evil. Granted, there are a few moral nihilists out there, but for the most part people do have a sense of good and evil and believe these things to be real. I do not believe the idea of instinctive knowledge is that far fetched. About 90% of the world believes in some sort of creator. I would be very interested in knowing how many of the other 10% walk around with the overwhelming sensation of...I do not belong here...This is not my place...



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28 Jun 2009, 10:43 pm

Magnus,

Your posts tend to be so consistenty full of nonsense that I'm seriously considering just skipping them and passing on to more serious material whenever I find them from now on.