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Fetal Rights & Forced Medical Treatment: Your Opinion?

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Sand
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22 Mar 2010, 8:38 pm

leejosepho wrote:
fidelis wrote:
I still don't see a lack of fetuses though. which happens to be leejosepho's lead argument right now..


No, not at all.

I am only asking how we human beings should handle the matter of pregnancy.

Should men have to beg women to bear children?

Should women have to beg men to leave them be?

Do the rest of us have any reasonable expectation either way?

At least in theoretical possibility, our continuance is at least partly dependent upon *some* kind of answers to those kinds of questions!


No, of course not! Men shouldn't have to beg women to be pregnant. Women should flop onto their backs as soon as a man admires their sexual attractiveness and welcome pregnancy and the years of tough work associated with raising a child as the natural result of their being fertile women. Why should women have any say in the matter whatever?



leejosepho
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22 Mar 2010, 10:13 pm

PLA wrote:
Hmm. It looks like leejosepho is one of those shared accounts.


What is a "shared account"?

Nobody but me uses this one.

I once forced (insisted upon) an abortion a woman did not want to have, and I once consented to (signed permission for) one I did not want to have happen ... and in-between, I had a vasectomy. So overall, I am possibly the last one to ever be considered qualified for deciding or advising or for even discussing any such matter ... and yes, I do realize no one has even asked ... but none of those things is the question here.

I had a personal "right" to do as pleased me in each of those situations, correct?

So does everyone else.

Nevertheless, and for this I am personally grateful: Many people have since judged me quite wrong in each.

So then, and once again: How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?


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Sand
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22 Mar 2010, 10:20 pm

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Hmm. It looks like leejosepho is one of those shared accounts.


What is a "shared account"?

Nobody but me uses this one.

I once forced (insisted upon) an abortion a woman did not want to have, and I once consented to (signed permission for) one I did not want to have happen ... and in-between, I had a vasectomy. So overall, I am possibly the last one to ever be considered qualified for deciding or advising or for even discussing any such matter ... and yes, I do realize no one has even asked ... but none of those things is the question here.

I had a personal "right" to do as pleased me in each of those situations, correct?

So does everyone else.

Nevertheless, and for this I am personally grateful: Many people have since judged me quite wrong in each.

So then, and once again: How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?


Primarily you should stop considering humanity an endangered species.



ruveyn
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23 Mar 2010, 2:47 am

Sand wrote:
Primarily you should stop considering humanity an endangered species.


All species on this planet are endangered. Indeed they are doomed. The planet will not last forever. When the sun dies, and it will, the planet dies in the sense of become lifeless or utterly vaporized. The human race will not find a home in the Cosmos outside the solar system, which is doomed because distances to other stars is too great for our limited lifetime. Even relativistic time dilation will not work since there is only so fast a massive space vessel can go. No massive space vessel will achieve the speed of light or travel faster than light.

ruveyn



Sand
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23 Mar 2010, 3:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
Primarily you should stop considering humanity an endangered species.


All species on this planet are endangered. Indeed they are doomed. The planet will not last forever. When the sun dies, and it will, the planet dies in the sense of become lifeless or utterly vaporized. The human race will not find a home in the Cosmos outside the solar system, which is doomed because distances to other stars is too great for our limited lifetime. Even relativistic time dilation will not work since there is only so fast a massive space vessel can go. No massive space vessel will achieve the speed of light or travel faster than light.

ruveyn


To get excited about what will happen cosmologically thousands of millions of years in the future is not quite sane. Humanity is about a couple of million years old in it's present form and at the rate it is fiddling with genes and mechanical equivalents to organic structures if it lasts another mere million years it would be very surprising indeed. Worry about fetuses (which nature itself destroys daily in the millions) is just plain silly.



PLA
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23 Mar 2010, 5:27 am

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Hmm. It looks like leejosepho is one of those shared accounts.


What is a "shared account"?

Nobody but me uses this one.

I once forced (insisted upon) an abortion a woman did not want to have, and I once consented to (signed permission for) one I did not want to have happen ... and in-between, I had a vasectomy. So overall, I am possibly the last one to ever be considered qualified for deciding or advising or for even discussing any such matter ... and yes, I do realize no one has even asked ... but none of those things is the question here.

I had a personal "right" to do as pleased me in each of those situations, correct?

So does everyone else.

Nevertheless, and for this I am personally grateful: Many people have since judged me quite wrong in each.

So then, and once again: How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?

Hmm. I thought it could be explained by two different people with different concerns posting under the same name. I guess I'll remain puzzled, then.

So you worry about the survival of the human race in making decisions about abortions, but you don't worry about the survival about the human race in making decisions about abortions, but you do worry about the survival of the human race in making decisions about abortions?

And you never even think about that topic, but you think that it's a very important topic to think about?


Maybe it's that you don't think that the risk is great, but you do think that the hazard is very grave. That could be kind of intelligible, with enough generousity.


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leejosepho
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23 Mar 2010, 6:05 am

I do not worry about any of the things you have mentioned.

The question and my "concern", if I have any, is simply about how we might all find a way to deal with these kinds of issues rationally.


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Sand
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23 Mar 2010, 6:31 am

leejosepho wrote:
I do not worry about any of the things you have mentioned.

The question and my "concern", if I have any, is simply about how we might all find a way to deal with these kinds of issues rationally.


I wish you success. It seems there is no light at the end of your tunnel.



ruveyn
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23 Mar 2010, 8:36 am

Sand wrote:

To get excited about what will happen cosmologically thousands of millions of years in the future is not quite sane. Humanity is about a couple of million years old in it's present form and at the rate it is fiddling with genes and mechanical equivalents to organic structures if it lasts another mere million years it would be very surprising indeed. Worry about fetuses (which nature itself destroys daily in the millions) is just plain silly.


homonids spit off from the other primates about 6,000,000 years ago. Our species arose in Africa, maybe 250,00 to 500,000 years ago. We are the new kids on the block.

ruveyn



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23 Mar 2010, 6:56 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

To get excited about what will happen cosmologically thousands of millions of years in the future is not quite sane. Humanity is about a couple of million years old in it's present form and at the rate it is fiddling with genes and mechanical equivalents to organic structures if it lasts another mere million years it would be very surprising indeed. Worry about fetuses (which nature itself destroys daily in the millions) is just plain silly.


homonids spit off from the other primates about 6,000,000 years ago. Our species arose in Africa, maybe 250,00 to 500,000 years ago. We are the new kids on the block.

ruveyn


We seem to be doing quite well for the new kids. Given that much time, we will either kill ourselves with five year olds making nukes, or we could sort out some of the actual morals from our society from the crap that seems to be overly played. There should be no regulations regarding abortion, because that life isn't even aware that it's alive. Maybe we should have a genocide on rocks. Sound good?

Also, I would like to remind you of another argument I posted. Abortion prevents a possible taxpayer (which seems to define "human" well enough for me), but so does every other birth control method. If you used a condom, you just killed a million possible taxpayers. Abortion is not a moral concern unless your catholic.


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leejosepho
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23 Mar 2010, 8:16 pm

Sand wrote:
I wish you success. It seems there is no light at the end of your tunnel.


Ah, you so funny!

I am at peace with the entire deal.


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23 Mar 2010, 11:09 pm

According to Spinoza's ethics, a foetus is as much a part of the body as your cells can be. As long as it is within the mother, it remains part of her (and she is connected to it, no one can deny that). A foetus becomes an individual when its umbilical cord is severed. =/ Although i do object to tempering with it for selfish reasons, as was the case of a same-sex couple that wanted their baby be born deaf. <.<



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24 Mar 2010, 4:39 am

Quote:
How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?

I would say that the owner of the gestation equipment should be allowed to decide whether the equipment is used or not. I don't really care if the owner is male or female, but I suspect it will in most cases be female.
Are there objections to this?

I might still not be able to guess what leejosepho is trying to say, but I wanted to give it one more try.


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leejosepho
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24 Mar 2010, 6:36 am

PLA wrote:
Quote:
How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?

I would say that the owner of the gestation equipment should be allowed to decide whether the equipment is used or not. I don't really care if the owner is male or female, but I suspect it will in most cases be female.
Are there objections to this?


Not from me, but yes, plenty.

Some governments want to decide the matter for everyone, and so do some religious or other folks ... and whether or not the fetus (one or more or all or any) we all need for mankind to live on almost always ends up being considered "expendable" or whatever.

Something is bad wrong with that, and we human beings need to stop arguing about that and find some way to "think together".

Altruism might be a good start, but few people really want to do that.

I am not really trying to get to any end point here, but just to show the foolishness of human thinking.


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Sand
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24 Mar 2010, 6:52 am

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Quote:
How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?

I would say that the owner of the gestation equipment should be allowed to decide whether the equipment is used or not. I don't really care if the owner is male or female, but I suspect it will in most cases be female.
Are there objections to this?


Not from me, but yes, plenty.

Some governments want to decide the matter for everyone, and so do some religious or other folks ... and whether or not the fetus (one or more or all or any) we all need for mankind to live on almost always ends up being considered "expendable" or whatever.

Something is bad wrong with that, and we human beings need to stop arguing about that and find some way to "think together".

Altruism might be a good start, but few people really want to do that.

I am not really trying to get to any end point here, but just to show the foolishness of human thinking.


You seem to have made a good effort, assuming you are human.



PLA
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24 Mar 2010, 12:19 pm

leejosepho wrote:
PLA wrote:
Quote:
How shall we human beings decide or handle such matters for the sake of all?

I would say that the owner of the gestation equipment should be allowed to decide whether the equipment is used or not. I don't really care if the owner is male or female, but I suspect it will in most cases be female.
Are there objections to this?


Not from me, but yes, plenty.

Some governments want to decide the matter for everyone, and so do some religious or other folks ... and whether or not the fetus (one or more or all or any) we all need for mankind to live on almost always ends up being considered "expendable" or whatever.

Something is bad wrong with that, and we human beings need to stop arguing about that and find some way to "think together".

Altruism might be a good start, but few people really want to do that.

I am not really trying to get to any end point here, but just to show the foolishness of human thinking.

OK

I would say that arguing is some way to "think together", but maybe not an optimal way. I'm not sure.


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"Everyone loves the dolphin. A bitter shark - emerging from it's cold depths - doesn't stand a chance." This is hyperbol.

"Run, Jump, Fall, Limp off, Try Harder."