Male circumcision is a good thing

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first one seems to rely on testimony and not on actual numbers.

4th one seems to be more focus on arousal and shows no numbers for sensation or location for the measurements.

and for the 2nd not seeing any numbers nore are they showing all the locations they tested on.

for the 3rd there dealing with vibration only and there not giving enough info on location testing.

all 4 are lacking alot of details on how they came up with there claims. i would not call these 4 studies conclusive by any means, there all lacking details and seem to be done with less focus than the one i brought up; which measured 19 places on the dick, and only used healthy penises no dysfunctional ones, or ones that have a history of aliment in there family that can cause dysfunction.

my back and forth with visagrunt was a little out of line. this subject effect me deeply and im often clouded by anger and become a little more brutish than i should when discussing it.

by out of line, making assumptions about him.

I had a dream about foreskins. ...but like Freud said, sometimes a foreskin is just a foreskin.

All the more reason for not making a big flap about it.

ruveyn

Thank you for that, Cultus_Diabolus.

And let me repeat, I respect the passion with which you hold to your position. I do not believe that you are wrong--I merely believe that others have the right to disagree with you, and that includes the parents of newborn boys.

My only concern with that grid is that I have greater reservations about adult circumcision.

First, there are far fewer health benefits. As far as I can recall, the marginal improvement in protection from STIs and cancer arises primarily in cases of infant circumcision, and that marginal benefit loses significance the later that circumcision takes place.

Second, when circumcision occurs after adolescence, a number of changes have taken place--first, physiological and neurological development are complete. Furthermore, patterns of sexual practice and behaviour have emerged. A boy learns what works with his penis--and what works for one man might be completely off putting for another. The studies that have suggested diminished function, satisfaction or sensitivity (and I don't deny that there are some!) all appear to be in cases of comparison of men before and after adult circumcision.

That's not to say that an adult man can't go ahead and get circumcised--indeed sometimes it is medically necessary. But I be less likely to take a neutral position absent a specific medical justification.

circumcision effects the development of a child's mine. generally in a negative way. they are more sensitive to pain afterwords and it has bin observed to negatively effect the mother child bonding.

Can you point me to more information about that, please?

Child development is not my area, and so I would like to dive into that issue a bit.

ALL HAIL THE FORESKIN MAN
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-q-MJOI_Oo[/youtube]

http://www.circumcision.org/psych.htm

Psychological Effects
Susan Blank, M.D. is the Chair of the American Academy of Pediatrics Task Force on Circumcision

March 16, 2010

Susan Blank, M.D.
New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
125 Worth St. Box 73
New York, NY 10013

Dear Dr. Blank:

As the author of Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma, I have studied the psychological effects of circumcision. These effects are generally unrecognized by medical doctors, but they are a necessary part of evaluating the advisability of the practice. As you work on developing circumcision policy, I hope you consider the known and unknown psychological effects of circumcision.

Infant neurological development, clinical experience, trauma theory, and research on circumcised infants all support the conclusion that circumcision is traumatic. Circumcision results in extreme pain and significant increases in heart rate and level of blood stress hormone. Some infants do not cry because they go into shock from the overwhelming experience. Anesthetics, if they are used, do not eliminate the pain or the trauma. Long-term infant behavioral changes and disruptions in mother-child bonding due to circumcision have been observed. An MRI showed permanent changes to a circumcised infant’s brain.

Circumcision trauma has long-term effects. In a medical journal survey of 546 circumcised men who reported circumcision harm, the following effects and feelings were noted.

anger, rage, sense of loss, shame, sense of having been victimized and mutilated
low self-esteem, fear, distrust, and grief
relationship difficulties, sexual anxieties, and depression
reduced emotional expression, lack of empathy, and avoidance of intimacy

Some of these men wish they had been given a choice at a later time rather than having circumcision forced on them when they were too young to resist. The survey does not suggest that all circumcised men have such feelings or how common the feelings are, only that they persist in some circumcised men, and more research is needed. Lack of awareness and understanding of circumcision, avoidance of the discomfort of questioning circumcision, and fear of disclosure help to explain why many circumcised men do not express dissatisfaction. Medical societies in Australia, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom recognize the long-term psychological risks of circumcision.

Some harmful effects may not be connected to circumcision because they appear many years later. Because circumcision is common in the U.S., its effects are common and interpreted as normal. Symptoms of circumcision trauma fit the symptom pattern of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). American discomfort with and avoidance of the topic is a PTSD symptom. Some people cannot even say the word "circumcision."

As a trauma, circumcision changes the brain. Does circumcision affect the prevalence of autism and ADHD which both occur about four times more often in boys than in girls? We do not know. Sudden infant death syndrome occurs more often in boys than in girls. The rise and fall of male infant mortality correlates with the rise and fall of the circumcision rate. Is circumcision a contributing factor? We do not know. Perinatal experience can affect later behavior. Other unexplored areas include testing male children and adults for changes in feelings, attitudes, and behaviors (especially antisocial behavior); physiological, neurological, and neurochemical differences; and sexual and emotional functioning. Of course, it would be unwise and irresponsible to recommend circumcision until we know the answers to these questions.

As discussed in my journal article "Circumcision Policy: A Psychosocial Perspective," those who participate in circumcision policy committees are subject to psychosocial factors connected with circumcision. Dealing with these psychosocial factors can start with recognizing the potential bias of committee members. For example, an effect of (circumcision) trauma is the compulsion to repeat it on others. Conflict of interest is not just financial. Members of circumcision policy committees should disclose their circumcision status, number of circumcisions performed, circumcision status of any male children, and religious or ethnic background. Disclosure of this information would help in the assessment of the credibility of the committee and its work. Members of such committees should be held to at least the same standard as peer reviewers. As stated by the International Committee of Medical Journal Editors, “any conflicts of interest that could bias their opinions” should be disclosed, and reviewers “should disqualify themselves from reviewing specific manuscripts if they believe it to be appropriate."

Medical organizations should also be aware of the potential legal implications associated with a flawed policy. A law journal article claimed that the failure to act in a scientifically responsible manner could make a medical organization liable for trade association misconduct connected with publishing negligent recommendations on circumcision.

Thank you for your work. Please let me know if I can be of assistance. I would be pleased to send a copy of my book upon request.

Very truly yours,

Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.
Executive Director
Circumcision Resource Center
P.O. Box 232
Boston, MA 02133
(617) 523-0088

http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm

this one and the one before it does come from a biased source.


Infant Responses to Circumcision
The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continous screams.
PAIN RESPONSE DURING CIRCUMCISION

To help in determining the degree of pain and stress caused by circumcision, infant response was compared to that resulting from other procedures. Levels of cortisol (a hormone released into the blood in response to stress) and behavioral responses were recorded for newborns undergoing circumcision, heel-stick blood sampling, weighing and measuring, and discharge examination. Circumcision resulted in significantly higher levels of behavioral distress and blood cortisol levels than did the other procedures. Since the infant is restrained during circumcision, the response to the use of restraint was similarly tested and was not found to be measurably distressing to newborns.

Circumcision is a surgical procedure that involves forcefully separating the foreskin from the glans and then cutting it off. It is typically accomplished with a special clamp device (see Fig. 2). Over a dozen studies confirm the extreme pain of circumcision. It has been described as “among the most painful [procedures] performed in neonatal medicine.” In one study, researchers concluded that the pain was “severe and persistent.” Increases in heart rate of 55 beats per minute have been recorded, about a 50 percent increase over the baseline. After circumcision, the level of blood cortisol increased by a factor of three to four times the level prior to circumcision. Investigators reported, “This level of pain would not be tolerated by older patients.”

Circumcision pain is described in this research study by Howard Stang and his colleagues from the Department of Pediatrics, Group Health Inc., and the University of Minnesota Institute of Child Development: “There is no doubt that circumcisions are painful for the baby. Indeed, circumcision has become a model for the analysis of pain and stress responses in the newborn.” They report that the infant will “cry vigorously, tremble, and in some cases become mildly cyanotic [having blueness or lividness of the skin, caused by a deficiency of oxygen] because of prolonged crying.”

According to adult listeners in one study, the infant’s response during circumcision included a cry that changed with the level of pain being experienced. The most invasive part of the procedure caused the longest crying. These cries were high pitched and were judged most urgent. A subsequent study confirmed that cries with higher pitch were perceived to be more distressing and urgent. Excessive crying can itself cause harm. In a rare case, an infant cried vehemently for about ninety minutes and ruptured his stomach. Using a pacifier during circumcision reduced crying but did not affect hormonal pain response. Therefore, while crying may be absent, other body signals demonstrate that pain is always present during circumcision.

Another perspective on the infant’s response to circumcision pain is provided by Marilyn Milos, who witnessed a circumcision during her training in nursing school:

We students filed into the newborn nursery to find a baby strapped spread-eagle to a plastic board on a counter top across the room. He was struggling against his restraints—tugging, whimpering, and then crying helplessly. . . . I stroked his little head and spoke softly to him. He began to relax and was momentarily quiet. The silence was soon broken by a piercing scream—the baby’s reaction to having his foreskin pinched and crushed as the doctor attached the clamp to his penis. The shriek intensified when the doctor inserted an instrument between the foreskin and the glans (head of the penis), tearing the two structures apart. The baby started shaking his head back and forth—the only part of his body free to move—as the doctor used another clamp to crush the foreskin lengthwise, which he then cut. This made the opening of the foreskin large enough to insert a circumcision instrument, the device used to protect the glans from being severed during the surgery. The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continuous screams. . . . During the next stage of the surgery, the doctor crushed the foreskin against the circumcision instrument and then, finally, amputated it. The baby was limp, exhausted, spent.

There is disagreement among physicians about using anesthesia during circumcisions. Prior to the mid-1980s, anesthesia was not used because infant pain was denied by the medical community. That belief has changed among many physicians, but an anesthetic still is not always administered due to a lack of familiarity with its use, as well as the belief that it introduces additional risk. Although there is indication that the risk is minimal, some physicians who perform circumcisions do not use anesthetics even after they are taught how. When an anesthetic is used, it relieves only some but not all of the pain, and its effect wanes before the post-operative pain does. The most effective form of anesthetic involves injections into the penis.

Continuing research in this area tends to compare existing options rather than trying new techniques, suggesting that accepting some pain during circumcision is unavoidable. Meanwhile, some physicians’ views about the use of anesthesia during circumcision grow more intense. In a medical article on the subject, the writers described circumcision without pain relief as “barbaric.” Another physician wrote that subjecting an adult to the same practice would be “unfathomable.”
BEHAVIORAL RESPONSE FOLLOWING CIRCUMCISION

Various studies investigated the effect of circumcision on infant behavior. Some studies found differences in sleep patterns and more irritability among circumcised infants. In addition, changes in infant-maternal interaction were observed during the first twenty-four hours after circumcision. For example, breast- and bottle-fed infants’ feeding behavior has been shown to deteriorate after circumcision. Other behavior differences have been noted on the day following the procedure. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) Task Force on Circumcision noted these various behavioral changes resulting from circumcision in their report.

Researchers found that European reports of newborn infant responses to hearing and taste stimulation showed little difference in responses between males and females, while related tests on American infants showed significant gender differences. Investigators suggested that these differences could be the result of circumcision and not gender.

In one of the most important studies, the behavior of nearly 90 percent of circumcised infants significantly changed after the circumcision. Some became more active, and some became less active. The quality of the change generally was associated with whether they were crying or quiet respectively at the start of the circumcision. This suggests the use of different coping styles by infants when they are subjected to extreme pain. In addition, the researchers observed that circumcised infants had lessened ability to comfort themselves or to be comforted by others.

Some mothers and nurses who contacted the Circumcision Resource Center also noted behavior changes. Sally Hughes, an obstetrical nurse who has seen many circumcised infants before they go home, reported,

When you lay them on their stomachs they scream. When their diaper is wet they scream. Normally, they don’t scream if their diaper is wet. Baby boys who are not circumcised do not scream like that. The circumcised babies are more irritable, and they nurse poorly.

Mothers reported that their infants changed temperament after the circumcision, cried for extended periods at home, and seemed inconsolable. See Circumcision, Persistent Crying (Colic), and Parental Stress.

Researchers at Children’s Hospital in Boston noted changes in sleep patterns, activity level, irritability, and mother-infant interaction. They concluded,

The persistence of specific behavioral changes after circumcision in neonates implies the presence of memory. In the short term, these behavioral changes may disrupt the adaptation of newborn infants to their postnatal environment, the development of parent-infant bonding, and feeding schedules.

A team of Canadian researchers produced evidence that circumcision has long-lasting traumatic effects. An article published in the international medical journal The Lancet reported the effect of infant circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The researchers tested 87 infants at 4 months or 6 months of age. The boys who had been circumcised were more sensitive to pain than the uncircumcised boys. Differences between groups were significant regarding facial action, crying time, and assessments of pain.

The authors believe that "neonatal circumcision may induce long-lasting changes in infant pain behavior because of alterations in the infant’s central neural processing of painful stimuli." They also write that "the long-term consequences of surgery done without anaesthesia are likely to include post-traumatic stress as well as pain. It is therefore possible that the greater vaccination response in the infants circumcised without anaesthesia may represent an infant analogue of a post-traumatic stress disorder triggered by a traumatic and painful event and re-experienced under similar circumstances of pain during vaccination."


References are available upon request.

i did do some back ground checking on the second one, being there isn't a publicly available source, the reason being is you have to pay to have access to the medical articles it referencing.

I definitely think it's wrong to force it upon children who have no choice in the matter but if someone wants to be circumcised, there's nothing wrong with that.

ruveyn I won't make a moral/emotional argument. Others are doing that.

However I should point out, that there are just as many doctors who don't agree.

I had you down as somebody who understands the basic idea of statistics,

Penile cancer is one of the rarer cancers, HPV which is the prime candidate for these kind of cancers, has a vaccine, which is effective so long as it is administered before sexual activity.

When you say there is a lower incidence of X condition, it seems on the surface to be a no brainier. However if the overall incidence is pretty small, and all they are doing is measuring the incidence of X rare condition, rather than overall health problems, it doesn't in fact make for a compelling public health policy.

If naive you might insist that it is improves overall health of the nation, by deduction. However, you are smart enough to realize especially at this scale you can't necessarily say that. It could have no overall impact net, or even make it slightly decreased.

Every procedure carries some risk. Many doctor would argue it is not a necessary procedure, and there isn't a significant enough improvement in public health benefit, so far is known, to justify a change in advice now. it is not like advice on obesity, etc,

----

Regarding STD, some traditional Mohel are spreading herpes through suction method. This not part my argument, it is just to warn people that if you want this procedure for your child then, you want to use someone with medical training, because babies have died, and had long term health problem, even blindness. Herpes is a not something a baby, is able to deal with easily.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 17 Sep 2012, 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fine. No one is forcing them to have their infant male children circumcised.

ruveyn