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Is there anything to "Men's Rights" groups?

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mercifullyfree
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04 Mar 2013, 10:25 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
I don't know what the various waves are, how many adherents each wave encompasses, nor to what specific ideology each wave adheres.


It seems like the majority of your posts are about feminism and gender issues, but without any understanding of it. Trying to push some narrative based on a straw man. You should look into it, do some reading, try to actually understand what you're talking about. Why post about it all the time if you're not curious enough to look into it?

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Is there some set of core beliefs on which the majority of Feminists agree? For example, are Feminists in general agreement that Patriarchy and Kyriarchy are bad?


Only that women should have equal political and legal rights to men. Everything else is open to differing interpretations and philosophies.

Even within the subset of feminists who oppose pornography, the motivations vary. Some might object to it all on some sort of principle, but others might only object to certain content or think that the women starring in it are being abused. I've read plenty of women complain about pornography merely on the grounds of it being banal, repetitive, and tacky and would object less if it were done according to some higher standards. I haven't heard or read any feminist objecting to pornography because they object to masturbation. The only people I've heard do this are very traditional Catholics and other religious people of the sort, which is quite a different angle.

As for me, I disagree strongly with anti-porn! There's just too much variety to make sweeping judgements about it being bad for women and I like some of it.



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04 Mar 2013, 11:01 am

mercifullyfree wrote:
It seems like the majority of your posts are about feminism and gender issues, but without any understanding of it. Trying to push some narrative based on a straw man. You should look into it, do some reading, try to actually understand what you're talking about. Why post about it all the time if you're not curious enough to look into it?

Counter-arguments are always welcome.

mercifullyfree wrote:
Quote:
Is there some set of core beliefs on which the majority of Feminists agree? For example, are Feminists in general agreement that Patriarchy and Kyriarchy are bad?

Only that women should have equal political and legal rights to men. Everything else is open to differing interpretations and philosophies.

I think that many people who don't label themselves as Feminist agree to equal rights for men and women. And, I think that some Feminists want more rights for women than for men, and want female preferences to trump male preferences. To which wave of Feminism do you adhere?

mercifullyfree wrote:
Even within the subset of feminists who oppose pornography, the motivations vary. Some might object to it all on some sort of principle, but others might only object to certain content or think that the women starring in it are being abused.

It is a way of earning money.

mercifullyfree wrote:
I've read plenty of women complain about pornography merely on the grounds of it being banal, repetitive, and tacky and would object less if it were done according to some higher standards.

I'm all for better quality, too.

mercifullyfree wrote:
I haven't heard or read any feminist objecting to pornography because they object to masturbation. The only people I've heard do this are very traditional Catholics and other religious people of the sort, which is quite a different angle.

As I understand it, they object to women being sexually objectified, by which they mean men being sexually aroused by a woman's image, especially to the point of masturbation. They advocate that men masturbate without the aid of pornography, perhaps with a trashy novel for inspiration, because women do it that way. Men masturbating to pornography that features women represents inequality and patriarchy.

mercifullyfree wrote:
As for me, I disagree strongly with anti-porn! There's just too much variety to make sweeping judgements about it being bad for women and I like some of it.

At least you're honest. :wink:



mercifullyfree
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04 Mar 2013, 11:37 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
I think that many people who don't label themselves as Feminist agree to equal rights for men and women. And, I think that some Feminists want more rights for women than for men, and want female preferences to trump male preferences. To which wave of Feminism do you adhere?


I don't really like identifying with any set group because doing that encourages too much dogmatic thought. That said, I lean towards disagreement with strict gender role and identity altogether, so the idea of "female preferences trumping male preferences" is nonsense to me. What the hell are these preferences? Humanity can't all be squeezed into two boxes.

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As I understand it, they object to women being sexually objectified, by which they mean men being sexually aroused by a woman's image, especially to the point of masturbation. They advocate that men masturbate without the aid of pornography, perhaps with a trashy novel for inspiration, because women do it that way. Men masturbating to pornography that features women represents inequality and patriarchy.


I just haven't much come across this belief outside of religious people or women who object to their partner looking at porn because they feel insecure and jealous about it, and that's not exactly a politically motivated viewpoint. I know it existed, but it seems more of an old school belief that isn't as relevant anymore.

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At least you're honest. :wink:


Yeah, it would be pretty hypocritical to object to porn. Does gay porn "objectify men" and do I care if it does? No.



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04 Mar 2013, 12:14 pm

Is this, is is this not, a Feminist tome?

Image

Does it, or does not advocate equal rights for men and women?



mercifullyfree
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04 Mar 2013, 12:20 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Is this, is is this not, a Feminist tome?

Image

Does it, or does not advocate equal rights for men and women?


Ah, Valerie. That was one woman in the 1960's, very radical, very outside the mainstream, very intentionally outrageous. What's your point?



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04 Mar 2013, 12:24 pm

That Feminists are not necessarily about equal rights for men and women. Some are about female supremacy.



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04 Mar 2013, 12:26 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
That Feminists are not necessarily about equal rights for men and women. Some are about female supremacy.

...and some non-feminists believe in male supremacy. there are examples all over the web, but their fringe ideas don't prove that most non-feminists think that women should be kept down.


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mercifullyfree
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04 Mar 2013, 12:31 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
That Feminists are not necessarily about equal rights for men and women. Some are about female supremacy.


To demonstrate this point, you're reaching back to a single, radical and very outside the mainstream woman from the 1960's who was part of a wild, artsy social scene. If anything, she was just punk rock before it existed.

You're doing this while ignoring or dismissing the existence of contemporary pro-sexuality, equality minded feminists, who happen to be a lot more plentiful and mainstream.

That is silly and desperate.



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04 Mar 2013, 2:54 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
That Feminists are not necessarily about equal rights for men and women. Some are about female supremacy.


To demonstrate this point, you're reaching back to a single, radical and very outside the mainstream woman from the 1960's who was part of a wild, artsy social scene. If anything, she was just punk rock before it existed.

You're doing this while ignoring or dismissing the existence of contemporary pro-sexuality, equality minded feminists, who happen to be a lot more plentiful and mainstream.

That is silly and desperate.

Well, let's try something:

- Are you against affirmative action in favour of women (and for any specific demographic group, btw)?
- Do you believe that custody rights of children should be awarded to fathers and mothers on an equal basis?
- Do you unequivocally support the presumption of innocence when dealing with accusations of rape?

Oh, and for the lulz:

- If in favour of conscription, are you in favour of universal conscription for both men and women?
- Do you agree that academic feminist studies are often pseudo-scientific wastes of money with no respect for the scientific method that only exist because any criticism towards them would be considered "misogynistic"?



mercifullyfree
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04 Mar 2013, 4:22 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Well, let's try something


....k.

Quote:
- Are you against affirmative action in favour of women (and for any specific demographic group, btw)?


Nah, I'm in favor of affirmative action for qualified poor people.

Quote:
- Do you believe that custody rights of children should be awarded to fathers and mothers on an equal basis?


I don't think gender should be relevant to deciding where the kid goes.

Quote:
- Do you unequivocally support the presumption of innocence when dealing with accusations of rape?


This is hard to answer, because if someone I knew and trusted told me they were raped, I would believe them without asking for semen samples. I don't consider this a women vs men thing though because out of the people who have told me such things happened to them, they were guys. Guys do get raped, le shock. And it would suck to admit to it and would probably feel worse if they were second guessed all over. That said, a conviction should require some evidence.

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Oh, and for the lulz:


.....k.

Quote:
- If in favour of conscription, are you in favour of universal conscription for both men and women?


No draft for anyone. If the war is so damned important, make a better case for it and convince people to willingly join.

Quote:
- Do you agree that academic feminist studies are often pseudo-scientific wastes of money with no respect for the scientific method that only exist because any criticism towards them would be considered "misogynistic"?


No. I don't consider any sociology to be "science", but that doesn't mean none of it should be studied. Depends on the class and teacher how worthwhile it is. I think some of them only exist to keep people employed, but there are worse money could be wasted on.



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04 Mar 2013, 4:41 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
- Are you against affirmative action in favour of women (and for any specific demographic group, btw)?

Nah, I'm in favor of affirmative action for qualified poor people.

mercifullyfree wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
- Do you unequivocally support the presumption of innocence when dealing with accusations of rape?

This is hard to answer, because if someone I knew and trusted told me they were raped, I would believe them without asking for semen samples. I don't consider this a women vs men thing though because out of the people who have told me such things happened to them, they were guys. Guys do get raped, le shock. And it would suck to admit to it and would probably feel worse if they were second guessed all over. That said, a conviction should require some evidence.

Well, you just failed the "equality" part (with a vengeance concerning rape accusations, btw)... I guess you owe ArrantPariah an apology... Next.



mercifullyfree
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04 Mar 2013, 5:08 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Well, you just failed the "equality" part (with a vengeance concerning rape accusations, btw)... I guess you owe ArrantPariah an apology... Next.


Umm. No, did you even read what I said? Piss off.



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04 Mar 2013, 5:16 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
That Feminists are not necessarily about equal rights for men and women. Some are about female supremacy.


To demonstrate this point, you're reaching back to a single, radical and very outside the mainstream woman from the 1960's who was part of a wild, artsy social scene. If anything, she was just punk rock before it existed.

You're doing this while ignoring or dismissing the existence of contemporary pro-sexuality, equality minded feminists, who happen to be a lot more plentiful and mainstream.

That is silly and desperate.


Whether silly or desperate, I did make the point that some celebrated Feminists were not about equal rights for men and women, but that some were downright nasty and sexist.

I could probably search contemporary Feminist sites for more examples.



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04 Mar 2013, 5:28 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Well, you just failed the "equality" part (with a vengeance concerning rape accusations, btw)... I guess you owe ArrantPariah an apology... Next.

Umm. No, did you even read what I said? Piss off.

Art Thou Enraged, Brethren?



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04 Mar 2013, 5:42 pm

GGPViper wrote:
mercifullyfree wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Well, you just failed the "equality" part (with a vengeance concerning rape accusations, btw)... I guess you owe ArrantPariah an apology... Next.

Umm. No, did you even read what I said? Piss off.

Art Thou Enraged, Brethren?


Well you weren't exactly right either. She said she'd have a hard time calling someone who confides in her a liar. She never said she'd call a man a liar but not a woman or vice versa. You actually assumed that rape is a crime that victimizes women exclusively when you asked the question in the first place. You failed the equality part of your own test.



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04 Mar 2013, 6:38 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
mercifullyfree wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Well, you just failed the "equality" part (with a vengeance concerning rape accusations, btw)... I guess you owe ArrantPariah an apology... Next.

Umm. No, did you even read what I said? Piss off.

Art Thou Enraged, Brethren?


Well you weren't exactly right either. She said she'd have a hard time calling someone who confides in her a liar. She never said she'd call a man a liar but not a woman or vice versa.

You are missing the point. The presumption of innocence goes beyond such idiosyncratic circumstances as believing "someone I knew and trusted" (roughly equivalent to used toilet paper as a scientific evidence). It is not a personal belief, but a legal standard for determining whether a person is guilty or not guilty.

seaturtleisland wrote:
You actually assumed that rape is a crime that victimizes women exclusively when you asked the question in the first place. You failed the equality part of your own test.

No. The word "unequivocally" wasn't chosen at random.

GGPViper wrote:
- Do you unequivocally support the presumption of innocence when dealing with accusations of rape?

If one unequivocally supports the presumption of innocence, one does not need to say "This is hard to answer".

A simple "yes" will suffice...