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The US Government Shut-Down - Whom to Blame

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auntblabby
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03 Oct 2013, 4:39 pm

Dox47 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
let's just say that times like these are just one big ball of confusion, eh? I have nothing against your guns or those of anybody you know. but I do take it personally when I am getting my leg peed on and then told it's only raining. let us just agree we each have our hot buttons and leave it at that.


I appreciate that Blabbs, but what I'm upset about is that guns have nothing to do with this, nothing to do with my feelings about the law, and nothing to do with the argument that you and I have been having about understanding everyone's point of view. Vigilans brought them up to try and paint me as this single issue paranoid extremist despite knowing better, and you went along with him. I'm insulted but not surprised at this point to get that from him, I'm just hurt that you'd so readily see me that way.

what it boils down to, is that the legalists don't understand the feelers, and vice-versa.



auntblabby
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03 Oct 2013, 4:40 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
But what is essential or non-essential? Plenty of Republicans would say the WIC program is not essential, as it has been (hopefully) temporarily closed down. But tell that pregnant women, or mothers with young children who will go without proper nutrition. Funny that the Republican party, that's so pro-life regarding abortion, sees no problem with jeopardizing the health of expecting mothers and babies.

the righties are demonstrably penny-wise and pound-foolish, stressing short term gain above all else.



eric76
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03 Oct 2013, 5:07 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But what is essential or non-essential? Plenty of Republicans would say the WIC program is not essential, as it has been (hopefully) temporarily closed down. But tell that pregnant women, or mothers with young children who will go without proper nutrition. Funny that the Republican party, that's so pro-life regarding abortion, sees no problem with jeopardizing the health of expecting mothers and babies.

the righties are demonstrably penny-wise and pound-foolish, stressing short term gain above all else.


From my point of view, both major parties like to borrow money for the purpose of consumption. That is a disaster in the making. How long can we keep borrowing more and more money for consumption?



sonofghandi
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03 Oct 2013, 5:11 pm

eric76 wrote:

From my point of view, both major parties like to borrow money for the purpose of consumption. That is a disaster in the making. How long can we keep borrowing more and more money for consumption?


Definitely true. The only differences is what they want to spend the money on. And even that changes fairly often (especially from a multi-generational standpoint). It is almost as if both sides want to spend as much as possible when they are in the majority just to spite the other hand.


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Kraichgauer
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03 Oct 2013, 5:14 pm

eric76 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But what is essential or non-essential? Plenty of Republicans would say the WIC program is not essential, as it has been (hopefully) temporarily closed down. But tell that pregnant women, or mothers with young children who will go without proper nutrition. Funny that the Republican party, that's so pro-life regarding abortion, sees no problem with jeopardizing the health of expecting mothers and babies.

the righties are demonstrably penny-wise and pound-foolish, stressing short term gain above all else.


From my point of view, both major parties like to borrow money for the purpose of consumption. That is a disaster in the making. How long can we keep borrowing more and more money for consumption?


The question is, how much of that spending is frivolous, and how much of it are genuine investments in our people's futures?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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03 Oct 2013, 5:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Cyanide wrote:
The only one to blame for this is the state... for existing...


I suspect you'd miss the state terribly once it's gone. Who is going to protect you from foreign invasion? Or build freeways that actually go somewhere? Or keeps industry from adding weight to products with broken glass, or won't wash off animal feces from meat?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The people

http://abcnews.go.com/US/pothole-robin- ... d8kpfUo4dU



auntblabby
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03 Oct 2013, 5:24 pm

eric76 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But what is essential or non-essential? Plenty of Republicans would say the WIC program is not essential, as it has been (hopefully) temporarily closed down. But tell that pregnant women, or mothers with young children who will go without proper nutrition. Funny that the Republican party, that's so pro-life regarding abortion, sees no problem with jeopardizing the health of expecting mothers and babies.

the righties are demonstrably penny-wise and pound-foolish, stressing short term gain above all else.


From my point of view, both major parties like to borrow money for the purpose of consumption. That is a disaster in the making. How long can we keep borrowing more and more money for consumption?

the righties stress guns, the lefties stress butter, but I say that BOTH will eventually have to be rationed. both sides are dug in at this point, refusing to do their share of budging.



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03 Oct 2013, 5:32 pm

RushKing wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Cyanide wrote:
The only one to blame for this is the state... for existing...


I suspect you'd miss the state terribly once it's gone. Who is going to protect you from foreign invasion? Or build freeways that actually go somewhere? Or keeps industry from adding weight to products with broken glass, or won't wash off animal feces from meat?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The people

http://abcnews.go.com/US/pothole-robin- ... d8kpfUo4dU


I kinda prefer a professional army defending us, as they have the best high tech weapons and training.
As for roads and infrastructure - I much prefer paying workers to do that, in order to keep people employed, as well as having all the needed machinery and materials available to them.
And health inspectors? Lots of luck getting inspectors into plants where animals are slaughtered for food without the force of law to back them up. And I'd prefer to have trained inspectors who know what it is they're looking for.
There are just things not everyone has the expertize or even the time to do. That's why we have government trained employees to do these things.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



auntblabby
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03 Oct 2013, 5:47 pm

each generation has to learn anew what is good for it. this gilded era must give way to another progressive era if this nation is to not collapse upon itself.



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03 Oct 2013, 6:07 pm

^It looks like that 'pothole Robin Hood' isn't doing that great of a job. I saw some people 'patch' a pothole once, but they didn't let the asphalt cure long enough; it all got squished out of the hole into a mound on the other side, so there was not just a hole but a bump as well. It just launched the cars even higher.

Far better to have things done by people who know what they're doing.



RushKing
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03 Oct 2013, 6:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Cyanide wrote:
The only one to blame for this is the state... for existing...


I suspect you'd miss the state terribly once it's gone. Who is going to protect you from foreign invasion? Or build freeways that actually go somewhere? Or keeps industry from adding weight to products with broken glass, or won't wash off animal feces from meat?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The people

http://abcnews.go.com/US/pothole-robin- ... d8kpfUo4dU


I kinda prefer a professional army defending us, as they have the best high tech weapons and training.
As for roads and infrastructure - I much prefer paying workers to do that, in order to keep people employed, as well as having all the needed machinery and materials available to them.
And health inspectors? Lots of luck getting inspectors into plants where animals are slaughtered for food without the force of law to back them up. And I'd prefer to have trained inspectors who know what it is they're looking for.
There are just things not everyone has the expertize or even the time to do. That's why we have government trained employees to do these things.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The self managed construction firms would still have the same machinery they had beforehand. They don't need the state to figure out how to obtain new equipment. Self managed firms tend to do a better job at regulating themselves, because personal responsibility is much more pronounced in institutions where people have more autonomy. In a private property, someone who is packaging meat with feces on it may think I'm not doing wrong, I'm just taking orders from the top down.



auntblabby
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03 Oct 2013, 6:23 pm

RushKing wrote:
The self managed construction firms would still have the same machinery they had beforehand. They don't need the state to figure out how to obtain new equipment. Self managed firms tend to do a better job at regulating themselves, because personal responsibility is much more pronounced in institutions where people have more autonomy. In a private property, someone who is packaging meat with feces on it may think I'm not doing wrong, I'm just taking orders from the top down.

that is NOT what upton Sinclair found to be the case.



RushKing
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03 Oct 2013, 6:25 pm

auntblabby wrote:
RushKing wrote:
The self managed construction firms would still have the same machinery they had beforehand. They don't need the state to figure out how to obtain new equipment. Self managed firms tend to do a better job at regulating themselves, because personal responsibility is much more pronounced in institutions where people have more autonomy. In a private property, someone who is packaging meat with feces on it may think I'm not doing wrong, I'm just taking orders from the top down.

that is NOT what upton Sinclair found to be the case.

I'm going by what Philip Zimbardo found.



Last edited by RushKing on 03 Oct 2013, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RushKing
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03 Oct 2013, 6:32 pm

LKL wrote:
Far better to have things done by people who know what they're doing.

Anarchists have nothing against listening to people in their area of expertise.



eric76
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03 Oct 2013, 8:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But what is essential or non-essential? Plenty of Republicans would say the WIC program is not essential, as it has been (hopefully) temporarily closed down. But tell that pregnant women, or mothers with young children who will go without proper nutrition. Funny that the Republican party, that's so pro-life regarding abortion, sees no problem with jeopardizing the health of expecting mothers and babies.

the righties are demonstrably penny-wise and pound-foolish, stressing short term gain above all else.


From my point of view, both major parties like to borrow money for the purpose of consumption. That is a disaster in the making. How long can we keep borrowing more and more money for consumption?


The question is, how much of that spending is frivolous, and how much of it are genuine investments in our people's futures?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I think that it is pretty much all just consumption. Even an average investment should bring in more money in the future, with interest, than what was spent. Nearly all government spending is pure consumption and very little, if any, could be accurately termed to be an investment of any kind. One of the few areas that MIGHT be termed as an investment is in education but only if kept under tight control.

Another way to look at it is if the United States is a company. Every company has a certain amount of overhead, but any company that spends more on overhead than what it brings in is definitely headed toward financial ruin. Just about all spending by the government is pure overhead and contributes absolutely nothing to the bottom line. You have to have some overhead, but you don't want it to be overwhelming.



eric76
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03 Oct 2013, 8:29 pm

auntblabby wrote:
RushKing wrote:
The self managed construction firms would still have the same machinery they had beforehand. They don't need the state to figure out how to obtain new equipment. Self managed firms tend to do a better job at regulating themselves, because personal responsibility is much more pronounced in institutions where people have more autonomy. In a private property, someone who is packaging meat with feces on it may think I'm not doing wrong, I'm just taking orders from the top down.

that is NOT what upton Sinclair found to be the case.


Shouldn't that be "that is NOT what Upton Sinclair imagined to be the case"?