Guns as the great equalizer

Page 9 of 18 [ 281 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 18 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

14 Jun 2015, 12:45 pm

AspieUtah wrote:

Raptor wrote:

...What's with [...] people's obsession with controlling other peoples lives?

I believe that this is the crux of the matter. There have always been certain individuals who want to control others (royals, wealthy, political leaders, bankers, police officers). Clearly, we know where that got us in history. The trouble is that, today, authoritarianism which even Hitler, Stalin and Mao couldn't imagine has been re-popularized allowing individuals with the slightest obsessive-compulsion, narcissism and anxiety to fear the possibility of all individuals having complete authority of their own lives and being prohibited from coercing others. Say hello to every neurotic authoritarian or second-rate nudge in world history.

The solution? Non-compliance. Stop feeding the trolls. Have back-up. Done.

Ah, trolls.

I've come to enjoy bantering with trolls since I can out-troll them at will. Trolls actually only affect the low hanging fruit, the little billygoats, of a forum since those are neurotic and oh so easy to mind-f#ck. We used to have a regular forum troll here that I sometimes miss. He was a liberal troll, and that is of course why he went un-banned for so long.

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

14 Jun 2015, 4:01 pm

Did someone say the "T" word??

_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

14 Jun 2015, 4:16 pm

Misslizard wrote:

Did someone say the "T" word??

Where have u been hiding?

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

14 Jun 2015, 4:41 pm

My kind goes dormant under the ocean for periods of time.lol
Not enough room under bridges.
Just went thru a bad loss,it would even make hard- hearted Raptor sad.

_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

14 Jun 2015, 5:59 pm

Misslizard wrote:

My kind goes dormant under the ocean for periods of time.lol
Not enough room under bridges.
Just went thru a bad loss,it would even make hard- hearted Raptor sad.

First off, I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

Not much has changed on this forum as of late except that your buddy Kraichgauer is boycotting Dox and I for reasons you've already figured out.

It seems the dog has run away too.....

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

14 Jun 2015, 7:44 pm

spiritnja wrote:

To anyone who wants guns to be taken away, please read this, it should convince you to change your mind. Guns take force out of the equation, so that only persuasion can be used.

"The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound
mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal
footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical
strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of
bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be
more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a
firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That,
of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly
disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat – it has no validity
when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed." - Maj. L. Caudill, USMC (Ret)

http://www.redstate.com/diary/denniswingo/2013/01/29/the-gun-is-civilization/

This retired Major seems to overlook the fact that if everyone is allowed to carry firearms then the 220 pound mugger (what's that in kg's, by the way?), the 19-year old gang banger, and the carload of drunk guys with baseball bats will probably be similarly armed themselves, so no, this quote has not made me change my mind one bit.

Imagine this scenario. A robber goes into a shop armed and with the intention of getting away with as much loot as possible. Others are in the shop, and one of these customers notices what the perpetrator is up to and decides to draw his gun in order to stop him, but someone else who did not notice the robber just sees someone quickly drawing a gun, and he thinks that the person trying to stop the robber is himself the actual perpetrator, and shoots him dead. Others in the store react instinctively to the sound of a gun going off, and before you know it everyone is shooting at everyone else. In the end no one is left standing - they are all dead.

People who carry firearms as part of their job (ex. police, security guards, soldiers) are trained in the proper use of them. Ordinary civilians are not, and cannot be expected to enforce the law with them. That is just silly.

AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

14 Jun 2015, 8:29 pm

Lintar wrote:

...People who carry firearms as part of their job (ex. police, security guards, soldiers) are trained in the proper use of them. Ordinary civilians are not, and cannot be expected to enforce the law with them....

If law-enforcement officers are better trained in proper firearm use, then the two New York Police Department officers who shot and injured nine bystanders in 2012 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Empi ... g_shooting ) have a lot of explaining to do. The officers missed their intended target in 38 percent of their shots fired.

Newsweek columnist George F. Will quoted in one of his columns from 1993 ( http://www.newsweek.com/are-we-nation-c ... ?piano_t=1 ) Washington lawyer Jeffrey Snyder's essay "A Nation of Cowards" which had been published by The Public Interest quarterly wherein Snyder wrote that "...[a] nationwide study by Don Kates, the constitutional lawyer and criminologist, found that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."

This fact suggests either: 1) a woefully trained U.S. law-enforcement community, or 2) a significantly better trained community of American firearm owners. I believe it is probably both. But, one thing is true: Law-enforcement officers are far less competent in their firearm skills than the average firearm-owning citizen.

_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

14 Jun 2015, 8:34 pm

Lintar wrote:

Just about everyone is allowed to carry firearms unless they live in one of the communist states but most seem to chose not to. Still, more do carry a piece now than ever before. Do you believe in having a choice, or does choice only apply to things you don't personally consider icky?

Quote:

Imagine this scenario. A robber goes into a shop armed and with the intention of getting away with as much loot as possible. Others are in the shop, and one of these customers notices what the perpetrator is up to and decides to draw his gun in order to stop him, but someone else who did not notice the robber just sees someone quickly drawing a gun, and he thinks that the person trying to stop the robber is himself the actual perpetrator, and shoots him dead. Others in the store react instinctively to the sound of a gun going off, and before you know it everyone is shooting at everyone else. In the end no one is left standing - they are all dead.

You make it sound like your robber is a shoplifter and not an armed robber using the gun for coercion. You cannot cap or even draw on someone for shoplifting. You're "they're all dead" ending is just paranoid.

Quote:

People who carry firearms as part of their job (ex. police, security guards, soldiers) are trained in the proper use of them. Ordinary civilians are not, and cannot be expected to enforce the law with them. That is just silly.

That so???
What about all these schools that are open to John Q. Citizen as well as cops?
[url]http://www.martialfirearmstraining.com/[/url]
Besides, what makes you think cops are so competent in the use of firearms?

And about enforcing the law.
How is defending oneself against an armed aggressor enforcing the law?

Ah, I get it. :idea:

You think we're just supposed to hold our hand up and magically suspend all action whilst we dial up the cops to come save the day.

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

14 Jun 2015, 9:12 pm

Raptor wrote:

Lintar wrote:

Quote:

You think we're just supposed to hold our hand up and magically suspend all action whilst we dial up the cops to come save the day.

Yes, the cops should come to save the day, because that is what they are for. The fact that they often don't is beside the point. As for believing in having a choice, that depends, and not necessarily upon whether or not I personally happen to view it as being, as you put it here, 'icky'. I do not believe that anyone has the right to own a firearm, in the same way a person has the right to affordable housing, an education, and stable employment. Yes, I know about the Second Amendment that you have over there, and I can honestly say that I am truly thankful that such a thing only exists in one country, and that the country in question is not the one I happen to live in.

This article was interesting: http://theconversation.com/faking-waves ... tats-11678

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

14 Jun 2015, 9:18 pm

I know it's hardly unique to gun issues, but I never can get over quite how many people loudly proclaim that they know nothing about guns and they're glad they don't, but still think their opinions are somehow as valid as those of us with extensive experience. Do I need to redo the challenge again?

_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez

Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

14 Jun 2015, 9:20 pm

Everyone abuses Australia's NFA.

In the end, it has had zero effect on the murder rate; firearm murders dropped, but knife/club murders rose. Though, this is unrelated to concealed carry and whatnot, as we've never had it here, and handguns have had the same registration since shortly after WW1; the NFA was for long arms, which made them closer to the handgun laws than what they were.

I like gunz, as it's an interest; I also know people use them as a false cause fallacy in regards to violent crime. People will kill just the same no matter what weapons they have access to, whether legally or illegally. This is something anyone can tell you with certainty and logic.

AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

14 Jun 2015, 9:26 pm

Dox47 wrote:

The "challenge"?

Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

14 Jun 2015, 9:27 pm

AspieUtah wrote:

Lintar wrote:

Yes, this shouldn't happen, and is not something that I can explain. As I understand it, the dramatic increase in police shootings has only occurred in the U.S., and my immediate response upon first coming across this trend was to attribute it to inadequate training in the appropriate use of firearms by various police departments over there. Maybe it has something to do with 'race relations', which are apparently as bad as they have always been. Where I am the police also carry firearms, but we don't have this issue, so perhaps it's cultural. It's something worth looking into.

AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

14 Jun 2015, 9:32 pm

Lintar wrote:

I once asked a Salt Lake City Police Department command officer about the inadequate firearm abilities of his officers. He admitted that most officers loathe their firearms and fire them exactly once a year to re-qualify. Well, that makes sense! :roll:

So, hire only firearm advocates and reduce the number of mistaken shootings. In other words, he was admitting that the average officer cared so little about his or her firearm abilities that he or she would rather risk the public than practice what they are instructed to know.

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

14 Jun 2015, 10:04 pm

Lintar wrote:

Yes, the cops should come to save the day, because that is what they are for. The fact that they often don't is beside the point.

Oh, that is the WHOLE point right there.

Quote:

As for believing in having a choice, that depends, and not necessarily upon whether or not I personally happen to view it as being, as you put it here, 'icky'. I do not believe that anyone has the right to own a firearm, in the same way a person has the right to affordable housing, an education, and stable employment.

I won't even guess as to how housing, education, and stable employment could even possibly be a "right". Do you know anything about economics?

Quote:

Yes, I know about the Second Amendment that you have over there, and I can honestly say that I am truly thankful that such a thing only exists in one country, and that the country in question is not the one I happen to live in.

Ah, so you don't live over here. While I believe that right to the means to defend oneself should apply to ALL human beings, I won't lose as much sleep over the people over there as over here where it is an enumerated right. Unless you actually believe that errant bullets are capable of transoceanic flight, you need not fret over what we do over here.

Quote:

This article was interesting: http://theconversation.com/faking-waves ... tats-11678

So what?
Personally, I don't care what they do in the land downunder. The biggest thing the threat of anti-gun legislation did in the US after Sandy Hook was boost the hell out of, you guessed it, the sale what you call "assault weapons" and ammo in the most common calibers.
Statistically, the streets over here should be running red with blood with all those dangerous assault weapons in circulation.

I'll be curious to see the reaction over there will be when (not if) you do have another multiple killing by someone using one of those "assault weapons" you think you effectively banned all of.

_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

14 Jun 2015, 10:20 pm

Dillogic wrote:

You obviously did not read the article. Yes, it is true that people will still kill each other even if they don't have access to firearms, but as anyone can tell you with certainty and logic, a man armed with an AK-47 will be able to kill more people in a shorter span of time than someone who just has a knife. A person with a knife can also be disarmed far more easily than someone with a gun, and although knives can and are used to stab people, they at least serve other, useful, purposes (ex. chopping vegetables). Guns, on the other hand, have only ONE purpose - to kill. The world would be better off without them.

Page 9 of 18 [ 281 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 ... 18 Next

Jump to:

Guns as the great equalizer Post Reply New Topic

Guns as the great equalizer