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What do you think about abortion

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Mikah
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06 Apr 2016, 3:34 pm

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It's irrelevant. We kill human beings all the time. In self defense, in war, as punishment for a crime, due to the accumulated effects of pollution and inadequate safety measures.


Indeed, I'm not arguing for pacifism.The question is whether killing is justified or not.

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it's still your body to do with as you wish.


I smell JSM. Even he concedes you cannot do as you wish if your actions infringe on the rights of another.


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ZenDen
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06 Apr 2016, 3:58 pm

"I don't recall saying this"

"Without rereading every post I've made"

"I don't think so"

"No. For the record I was created by a mad scientist"

Soooo, no answers, no answers, no answers, no answers! :D Ignoring, forgetting, dis-remembering, evading are no fun....it creates, as you obviously know, a discussion not conducive to any conversation except the one inside your head. :(

Then this:
"A shame if that's how it turns out, if he means what he says, he might be America's last chance to remain a society, rather than just a collection of people that live on the same land, as my country is now."

This brings your ideas to clarity? A little humor: What do you get when you cross a rabid, self serving politician with a rabid, self serving business person? Try to think this one through. (Sorry you feel that way about your country....We don't feel that way about ours, so please keep the denigration to yourself. Our countries operate from different principles.)

"I'm still waiting for someone to point out why I am wrong about fetuses actually being young human beings" is your "fall-back" and you trivialize women's input. I guess I'll leave you to your thoughts and ignore you for the rest of this thread. Cheerio.



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06 Apr 2016, 4:08 pm

AspE wrote:
"Well that was a nice side tracking post, I imagine this thread will die down again, I'm still waiting for someone to point out why I am wrong about fetuses actually being young human beings or even rebut my arguments about viability being a completely insufficient measure of humanness."

It's irrelevant. We kill human beings all the time. In self defense, in war, as punishment for a crime, due to the accumulated effects of pollution and inadequate safety measures. If a human being is growing in your body, it's still your body to do with as you wish. I'm on the side of living breathing citizens.


:D

But to change the mind of someone who says he can/will not change his position because, as he also states, that anyone who disagrees with him, and tries to provide proof is not being rational, is impossible. He's not discussing, only proclaiming.



AspE
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06 Apr 2016, 4:12 pm

Mikah wrote:
Quote:
It's irrelevant. We kill human beings all the time. In self defense, in war, as punishment for a crime, due to the accumulated effects of pollution and inadequate safety measures.


Indeed, I'm not arguing for pacifism.The question is whether killing is justified or not.

Quote:
it's still your body to do with as you wish.


I smell JSM. Even he concedes you cannot do as you wish if your actions infringe on the rights of another.

You don't get rights until you're a person.



Mikah
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06 Apr 2016, 4:14 pm

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Soooo, no answers, no answers, no answers, no answers! :D Ignoring, forgetting, dis-remembering, evading are no fun....it creates, as you obviously know, a discussion not conducive to any conversation except the one inside your head. :(


You didn't quote me on anything, it was just "you said this, you said that". I genuinely think I've been misinterpreted. If I accused you of saying "I bathe in the blood of aborted foetuses", then when you respond "no I don't and no I didn't say that", am I allowed to run off in a strop too? If you want a genuine answer to my origins: English born and bred.

Quote:
"I'm still waiting for someone to point out why I am wrong about fetuses actually being young human beings" is your "fall-back" and you trivialize women's input.


In a way it is the fall back argument, it's the very heart of the problem. If what is destroyed in an abortion is not human then all these other arguments are superfluous, you don't need any justification. If what is destroyed is a human, then there are very few situations where abortion is moral.


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Mikah
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06 Apr 2016, 4:22 pm

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But to change the mind of someone who says he can/will not change his position because, as he also states, that anyone who disagrees with him, and tries to provide proof is not being rational, is impossible. He's not discussing, only proclaiming.


I consider myself open minded, in fact I changed my mind from your current position to mine, I could change it back, but the problem is no one has even tried to change it, at best it's appeals to emotion, appeals that would not be accepted for the killing of any other group of humans. That's not arguing.

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You don't get rights until you're a person.


Ok. What's a person?


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06 Apr 2016, 4:36 pm

I think that people should be free to make their own decisions as they deem to be right or wrong by their own standards.

I don't think that there should be a law saying whether or not you can have one, just one that lays some guidelines so that the process can be as humane as possible.

I don't agree with abortion (especially late term), but everyone has the right to believe and act on what they believe, as long as they are able to make decisions with a sane mindset (by sane I mean non-psychotic, non-criminal and non-delusional)

Just my opinion.


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06 Apr 2016, 5:56 pm

Mikah wrote:
Quote:
Soooo, no answers, no answers, no answers, no answers! :D Ignoring, forgetting, dis-remembering, evading are no fun....it creates, as you obviously know, a discussion not conducive to any conversation except the one inside your head. :(


You didn't quote me on anything, it was just "you said this, you said that". I genuinely think I've been misinterpreted. If I accused you of saying "I bathe in the blood of aborted foetuses", then when you respond "no I don't and no I didn't say that", am I allowed to run off in a strop too? If you want a genuine answer to my origins: English born and bred.

Quote:
"I'm still waiting for someone to point out why I am wrong about fetuses actually being young human beings" is your "fall-back" and you trivialize women's input.


In a way it is the fall back argument, it's the very heart of the problem. If what is destroyed in an abortion is not human then all these other arguments are superfluous, you don't need any justification. If what is destroyed is a human, then there are very few situations where abortion is moral.


It's a non-sentient clump of cells, it is not human yet. Therefore it does not have the rights of an actually sentient not-still-dependent-on-the-womb-for-sustaining-life human person. It's really quite simple if you understand basic biology.


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06 Apr 2016, 6:04 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Quote:
Soooo, no answers, no answers, no answers, no answers! :D Ignoring, forgetting, dis-remembering, evading are no fun....it creates, as you obviously know, a discussion not conducive to any conversation except the one inside your head. :(


You didn't quote me on anything, it was just "you said this, you said that". I genuinely think I've been misinterpreted. If I accused you of saying "I bathe in the blood of aborted foetuses", then when you respond "no I don't and no I didn't say that", am I allowed to run off in a strop too? If you want a genuine answer to my origins: English born and bred.

Quote:
"I'm still waiting for someone to point out why I am wrong about fetuses actually being young human beings" is your "fall-back" and you trivialize women's input.


In a way it is the fall back argument, it's the very heart of the problem. If what is destroyed in an abortion is not human then all these other arguments are superfluous, you don't need any justification. If what is destroyed is a human, then there are very few situations where abortion is moral.


It's a non-sentient clump of cells, it is not human yet. Therefore it does not have the rights of an actually sentient not-still-dependent-on-the-womb-for-sustaining-life human person. It's really quite simple if you understand basic biology.

I doubt they know much biology and I don't think they care about reality. I also doubt they understand what it means to be sentient. Even when a baby is born, they aren't sentient for a few months. Even then, their brains are still being pruned back to their final structure...



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06 Apr 2016, 7:09 pm

Abortion on demand should be illegal, there should only be exceptions for rape and health of the mother. Doctors who preform illegal abortions should be sent to prison and permanently lose their medical licenses, the needed abortions should be done at a hospital with real doctors like any other surgery. Some people say these children are unwanted but that's not true, we've had almost 60 million people murdered because of Roe v Wade and I don't think we're better off. If these children were unwanted then we need to take of care of them not erase their life out of existence. People get so hung up about such and such exceptions when 90%+ of abortions would not fall under those categories. We are being punished, it is hard to imagine what this country would look like minus what can be described as genocide but I do believe we would be better off and a happier more socially cohesive people.



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06 Apr 2016, 7:23 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Abortion on demand should be illegal, there should only be exceptions for rape and health of the mother. Doctors who preform illegal abortions should be sent to prison and permanently lose their medical licenses, the needed abortions should be done at a hospital with real doctors like any other surgery. Some people say these children are unwanted but that's not true, we've had almost 60 million people murdered because of Roe v Wade and I don't think we're better off. If these children were unwanted then we need to take of care of them not erase their life out of existence. People get so hung up about such and such exceptions when 90%+ of abortions would not fall under those categories. We are being punished, it is hard to imagine what this country would look like minus what can be described as genocide but I do believe we would be better off and a happier more socially cohesive people.

The only people murdered by Roe are the clinic doctors and workers who have been murdered by fanatical anti abortionists. Even in church! You can't murder a collection of biological cells dependent on another persons body. It is little different from cutting out cancer cells. They both are alive in the same way, though, to be fair, most pregnancies won't kill you. Many surgeries are done in clinics that aren't hospitals. So, your argument that they must be done in hospitals fails for the same reason as those other surgeries outside of hospitals. If these clumps of cells were wanted, they wouldn't be aborted, would they? Your argument falters there as well. Lastly, as has been pointed out before, these 'children' are only wanted until birth. Then, they have to fend for themselves...



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06 Apr 2016, 7:27 pm

pcuser wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Abortion on demand should be illegal, there should only be exceptions for rape and health of the mother. Doctors who preform illegal abortions should be sent to prison and permanently lose their medical licenses, the needed abortions should be done at a hospital with real doctors like any other surgery. Some people say these children are unwanted but that's not true, we've had almost 60 million people murdered because of Roe v Wade and I don't think we're better off. If these children were unwanted then we need to take of care of them not erase their life out of existence. People get so hung up about such and such exceptions when 90%+ of abortions would not fall under those categories. We are being punished, it is hard to imagine what this country would look like minus what can be described as genocide but I do believe we would be better off and a happier more socially cohesive people.

The only people murdered by Roe are the clinic doctors and workers who have been murdered by fanatical anti abortionists. Even in church! You can't murder a collection of biological cells dependent on another persons body. It is little different from cutting out cancer cells. They both are alive in the same way, though, to be fair, most pregnancies won't kill you. Many surgeries are done in clinics that aren't hospitals. So, your argument that they must be done in hospitals fails for the same reason as those other surgeries outside of hospitals. If these clumps of cells were wanted, they wouldn't be aborted, would they? Your argument falters there as well. Lastly, as has been pointed out before, these 'children' are only wanted until birth. Then, they have to fend for themselves...


If you play the game of who is and isn't a person then you might find yourself on the losing end of that one day, know for a fact the second they can get some sort of prenatal marker for Autism that they'll begin aborting en masse just as they have Down Syndrome.

Doctors should take their oaths seriously, I do not believe abortion in 99% cases is consistent with that oath.



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06 Apr 2016, 7:36 pm

Jacoby wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Abortion on demand should be illegal, there should only be exceptions for rape and health of the mother. Doctors who preform illegal abortions should be sent to prison and permanently lose their medical licenses, the needed abortions should be done at a hospital with real doctors like any other surgery. Some people say these children are unwanted but that's not true, we've had almost 60 million people murdered because of Roe v Wade and I don't think we're better off. If these children were unwanted then we need to take of care of them not erase their life out of existence. People get so hung up about such and such exceptions when 90%+ of abortions would not fall under those categories. We are being punished, it is hard to imagine what this country would look like minus what can be described as genocide but I do believe we would be better off and a happier more socially cohesive people.

The only people murdered by Roe are the clinic doctors and workers who have been murdered by fanatical anti abortionists. Even in church! You can't murder a collection of biological cells dependent on another persons body. It is little different from cutting out cancer cells. They both are alive in the same way, though, to be fair, most pregnancies won't kill you. Many surgeries are done in clinics that aren't hospitals. So, your argument that they must be done in hospitals fails for the same reason as those other surgeries outside of hospitals. If these clumps of cells were wanted, they wouldn't be aborted, would they? Your argument falters there as well. Lastly, as has been pointed out before, these 'children' are only wanted until birth. Then, they have to fend for themselves...


If you play the game of who is and isn't a person then you might find yourself on the losing end of that one day, know for a fact the second they can get some sort of prenatal marker for Autism that they'll begin aborting en masse just as they have Down Syndrome.

Doctors should take their oaths seriously, I do not believe abortion in 99% cases is consistent with that oath.

Since I'm already here, I won't find myself on the losing end of that. And if I had been aborted, it wouldn't have made any difference as I wasn't sentient or even human yet. It would be non-existence, so it wouldn't matter. Doctors are taking their oaths seriously and correctly. You believe they aren't. That, unfortunately doesn't make it so. I understand that you think you know the 'truth', but you can't throw nonsense for an argument hoping some of it sticks. So, when you have relevant, real facts, post again...



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06 Apr 2016, 7:45 pm

pcuser wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Abortion on demand should be illegal, there should only be exceptions for rape and health of the mother. Doctors who preform illegal abortions should be sent to prison and permanently lose their medical licenses, the needed abortions should be done at a hospital with real doctors like any other surgery. Some people say these children are unwanted but that's not true, we've had almost 60 million people murdered because of Roe v Wade and I don't think we're better off. If these children were unwanted then we need to take of care of them not erase their life out of existence. People get so hung up about such and such exceptions when 90%+ of abortions would not fall under those categories. We are being punished, it is hard to imagine what this country would look like minus what can be described as genocide but I do believe we would be better off and a happier more socially cohesive people.

The only people murdered by Roe are the clinic doctors and workers who have been murdered by fanatical anti abortionists. Even in church! You can't murder a collection of biological cells dependent on another persons body. It is little different from cutting out cancer cells. They both are alive in the same way, though, to be fair, most pregnancies won't kill you. Many surgeries are done in clinics that aren't hospitals. So, your argument that they must be done in hospitals fails for the same reason as those other surgeries outside of hospitals. If these clumps of cells were wanted, they wouldn't be aborted, would they? Your argument falters there as well. Lastly, as has been pointed out before, these 'children' are only wanted until birth. Then, they have to fend for themselves...


If you play the game of who is and isn't a person then you might find yourself on the losing end of that one day, know for a fact the second they can get some sort of prenatal marker for Autism that they'll begin aborting en masse just as they have Down Syndrome.

Doctors should take their oaths seriously, I do not believe abortion in 99% cases is consistent with that oath.

Since I'm already here, I won't find myself on the losing end of that. And if I had been aborted, it wouldn't have made any difference as I wasn't sentient or even human yet. It would be non-existence, so it wouldn't matter. Doctors are taking their oaths seriously and correctly. You believe they aren't. That, unfortunately doesn't make it so. I understand that you think you know the 'truth', but you can't throw nonsense for an argument hoping some of it sticks. So, when you have relevant, real facts, post again...


Your 'facts' is simply that you do you believe in the unborn being entitled to any rights and protections and deny their very humanity, I disagree. You can believe as you wish, at least you are consistent with your beliefs but most people recognize the immorality of abortion but tolerate it's acceptance as some necessary evil which is worst than anything. I think most people in this country want the unborn to be protected much more than they are now compared to the number of people who deny humanity and support abortion on demand sometimes even on our dime.



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06 Apr 2016, 8:29 pm

Jacoby wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Abortion on demand should be illegal, there should only be exceptions for rape and health of the mother. Doctors who preform illegal abortions should be sent to prison and permanently lose their medical licenses, the needed abortions should be done at a hospital with real doctors like any other surgery. Some people say these children are unwanted but that's not true, we've had almost 60 million people murdered because of Roe v Wade and I don't think we're better off. If these children were unwanted then we need to take of care of them not erase their life out of existence. People get so hung up about such and such exceptions when 90%+ of abortions would not fall under those categories. We are being punished, it is hard to imagine what this country would look like minus what can be described as genocide but I do believe we would be better off and a happier more socially cohesive people.

The only people murdered by Roe are the clinic doctors and workers who have been murdered by fanatical anti abortionists. Even in church! You can't murder a collection of biological cells dependent on another persons body. It is little different from cutting out cancer cells. They both are alive in the same way, though, to be fair, most pregnancies won't kill you. Many surgeries are done in clinics that aren't hospitals. So, your argument that they must be done in hospitals fails for the same reason as those other surgeries outside of hospitals. If these clumps of cells were wanted, they wouldn't be aborted, would they? Your argument falters there as well. Lastly, as has been pointed out before, these 'children' are only wanted until birth. Then, they have to fend for themselves...


If you play the game of who is and isn't a person then you might find yourself on the losing end of that one day, know for a fact the second they can get some sort of prenatal marker for Autism that they'll begin aborting en masse just as they have Down Syndrome.

Doctors should take their oaths seriously, I do not believe abortion in 99% cases is consistent with that oath.

Since I'm already here, I won't find myself on the losing end of that. And if I had been aborted, it wouldn't have made any difference as I wasn't sentient or even human yet. It would be non-existence, so it wouldn't matter. Doctors are taking their oaths seriously and correctly. You believe they aren't. That, unfortunately doesn't make it so. I understand that you think you know the 'truth', but you can't throw nonsense for an argument hoping some of it sticks. So, when you have relevant, real facts, post again...


Your 'facts' is simply that you do you believe in the unborn being entitled to any rights and protections and deny their very humanity, I disagree. You can believe as you wish, at least you are consistent with your beliefs but most people recognize the immorality of abortion but tolerate it's acceptance as some necessary evil which is worst than anything. I think most people in this country want the unborn to be protected much more than they are now compared to the number of people who deny humanity and support abortion on demand sometimes even on our dime.

My facts are deeply rooted in science. They have been studied deeply and fully. Your facts are your beliefs, perhaps rooted in religion. If it is a religious belief, stop trying to force it on others who don't believe as you do. As to the statement you made about most people, you should read the polls. Far more people believe it's a private matter between the woman and her doctor. You're a man who is trying to control a woman's body to your own ends and beliefs...



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06 Apr 2016, 8:49 pm

In civilized industrial countries abortion ought to be unnecessary since a woman can easily obtain birth control drugs or devices. If birth control is used then there should be no need for abortion.


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