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Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

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The_Face_of_Boo
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05 Apr 2017, 5:41 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
So what happened to Khadija after she got married? Did her wealth and business become Muhammad's property?


No, I think after she died, she was much older than him.

Khadika was probably an Ebionite (an anti-trinity christian sect), not Pagan, before islam.
Her cousin was also an Ebionite or Nestorian priest, who probably was the person who translated the torah to Arabic.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this was the core of Islam. Islam is a continuum of a old non-trinitarian jewish-christian doctrine while borrowing some old Arab-pagan terms.



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16 Apr 2017, 10:40 am

Dutch87 wrote:
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I haven't read the entire thread, but I have a question:

How do you know who is a free person and who is enslaved?


I cannot know. Only the individual can know.

Quote:
Can a person not appear to be free, yet still be enslaved? Is it possible to be free with regards to one thing and enslaved to another?


I do not see why not. We all have our own delusions and submit to imaginary Gods.

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DL



GnosticBishop
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16 Apr 2017, 10:44 am

Barchan wrote:
Not really.

And in particular, I think it's ironic how the hijab is seen as an article of oppression, when it was originally worn by free women to distinguish themselves from the slaves. Being allowed to wear a head covering was seen as a mark of privilege.


The fact that men allow it shows the slavery of Muslim Women.

The fact that Muslim women might not want to not be seen as low of a grade of slaves than other slaves is irrelevant.

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DL



GnosticBishop
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16 Apr 2017, 10:48 am

BaalChatzaf wrote:

Assuming control over another human (other than a child unable to manage his/her own affairs) is totally perverse.


I agree.

What should we do about Islam, which has institutionalized slavery?

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The_Face_of_Boo
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16 Apr 2017, 12:43 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Married women in Louisiana in the 1960s needed their husbands' consent to dispose of their personal property, under (no s**t) Lord and Master Laws. Pre-Islamic Pagans sound good so far.



Abrahamic religions' God is a male figure (even though in islam it's stated to be genderless), all their prophets are males; while pagan religions had some goddesses at least.



MushroomPrincess
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16 Apr 2017, 8:50 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Arab pagans were also used to worship 3 main goddesses; the three daughters of Allah.

All this evaporated in Arabia after islam.

Would you say that Al-Uzza, Allat, and Manat are analogous to the Maiden, Mother, and Crone found in more modern pagan religions?



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16 Apr 2017, 8:57 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Arab pagans were also used to worship 3 main goddesses; the three daughters of Allah.

All this evaporated in Arabia after islam.
That sounds alot like the unsubstantiated hypothesis I heard that ancient Jews were polytheists but then they elevated their war god to such importance they stopped worshipping their other gods.

It would explain that bit in Kings where Solomon was worshipping Baal. To a genre-savvy monotheist this seems foolish but perhaps Solomon already had a pantheon anyway.


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Yo El
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17 Apr 2017, 3:05 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Abrahamic religions' God is a male figure (even though in islam it's stated to be genderless), all their prophets are males; while pagan religions had some goddesses at least.
Esther



The_Face_of_Boo
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17 Apr 2017, 7:25 am

MushroomPrincess wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Arab pagans were also used to worship 3 main goddesses; the three daughters of Allah.

All this evaporated in Arabia after islam.

Would you say that Al-Uzza, Allat, and Manat are analogous to the Maiden, Mother, and Crone found in more modern pagan religions?



I don't know about the modern pagan religions, but Al-Uzza, Allat, and Manat are parallel to even older Canaanite/Egyptian goddesses.

Al-Uzza is also similar to Aphrodite.



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17 Apr 2017, 8:58 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Married women in Louisiana in the 1960s needed their husbands' consent to dispose of their personal property, under (no s**t) Lord and Master Laws. Pre-Islamic Pagans sound good so far.



Abrahamic religions' God is a male figure (even though in islam it's stated to be genderless), all their prophets are males; while pagan religions had some goddesses at least.



From the Bronze Age back, we worshiped the Goddesses in a relatively safe world without major wars which is why no fortified cities were needed. Only after we created the Gods of war have we gifted ourselves with 5,000 tears of war.

Strange how men do nor recognize the worthlessness of testosterone is in terms of peacemaking.

Regards
DL



Yo El
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17 Apr 2017, 3:27 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Married women in Louisiana in the 1960s needed their husbands' consent to dispose of their personal property, under (no s**t) Lord and Master Laws. Pre-Islamic Pagans sound good so far.



Abrahamic religions' God is a male figure (even though in islam it's stated to be genderless), all their prophets are males; while pagan religions had some goddesses at least.



From the Bronze Age back, we worshiped the Goddesses in a relatively safe world without major wars which is why no fortified cities were needed. Only after we created the Gods of war have we gifted ourselves with 5,000 tears of war.

Strange how men do nor recognize the worthlessness of testosterone is in terms of peacemaking.

Regards
DL
Abrahamic religion would only be 3000-4000 years(max) old if it was created by men. This means there would've been other reasons why people started to fortify their cities. Also in the first 1000-2000 years Abrahamic religion was only limited to the country of Israel, and this would also make no sense with your statement. Since major wars already were a world wide thing back then. Since there are way to many holes in this flawed statement means that there is propably another reason why people decided to fortify their cities. And there are probably reasonable explanations based on facts instead of prejudiced ones.



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17 Apr 2017, 4:54 pm

Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Married women in Louisiana in the 1960s needed their husbands' consent to dispose of their personal property, under (no s**t) Lord and Master Laws. Pre-Islamic Pagans sound good so far.



Abrahamic religions' God is a male figure (even though in islam it's stated to be genderless), all their prophets are males; while pagan religions had some goddesses at least.



From the Bronze Age back, we worshiped the Goddesses in a relatively safe world without major wars which is why no fortified cities were needed. Only after we created the Gods of war have we gifted ourselves with 5,000 tears of war.

Strange how men do nor recognize the worthlessness of testosterone is in terms of peacemaking.

Regards
DL
Abrahamic religion would only be 3000-4000 years(max) old if it was created by men. This means there would've been other reasons why people started to fortify their cities. Also in the first 1000-2000 years Abrahamic religion was only limited to the country of Israel, and this would also make no sense with your statement. Since major wars already were a world wide thing back then. Since there are way to many holes in this flawed statement means that there is propably another reason why people decided to fortify their cities. And there are probably reasonable explanations based on facts instead of prejudiced ones.


Before the Bronze Age, the weapons were not powerful enough to require fortifications against them. The Bronze Age changed weapons of warfare to where large scale wars were possible and that is why defensive battlements were built. That is also when the Goddesses were rejected for Gods of war. That is all spoken of near the end of this too long link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

I had only given bare facts. Where do you see prejudice?

Regards
DL



Yo El
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18 Apr 2017, 1:43 am

GnosticBishop wrote:
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Married women in Louisiana in the 1960s needed their husbands' consent to dispose of their personal property, under (no s**t) Lord and Master Laws. Pre-Islamic Pagans sound good so far.



Abrahamic religions' God is a male figure (even though in islam it's stated to be genderless), all their prophets are males; while pagan religions had some goddesses at least.



From the Bronze Age back, we worshiped the Goddesses in a relatively safe world without major wars which is why no fortified cities were needed. Only after we created the Gods of war have we gifted ourselves with 5,000 tears of war.

Strange how men do nor recognize the worthlessness of testosterone is in terms of peacemaking.

Regards
DL
Abrahamic religion would only be 3000-4000 years(max) old if it was created by men. This means there would've been other reasons why people started to fortify their cities. Also in the first 1000-2000 years Abrahamic religion was only limited to the country of Israel, and this would also make no sense with your statement. Since major wars already were a world wide thing back then. Since there are way to many holes in this flawed statement means that there is propably another reason why people decided to fortify their cities. And there are probably reasonable explanations based on facts instead of prejudiced ones.


Before the Bronze Age, the weapons were not powerful enough to require fortifications against them. The Bronze Age changed weapons of warfare to where large scale wars were possible and that is why defensive battlements were built. That is also when the Goddesses were rejected for Gods of war. That is all spoken of near the end of this too long link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

I had only given bare facts. Where do you see prejudice?

Regards
DL
I see, but that means changed weapons of warfare were the reason to why this would happen. And ofcourse bigger andmore organized armies made large wars possible. Gods of war are the by-product in that case. Maybe the invention of these gods of wars were to find justification for war. Meaning people wanted to start war even before their 'god' told them to do it instead of the other way around, interesting. Ofcourse this is just speculation.



GnosticBishop
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18 Apr 2017, 10:43 am

Yo El wrote:
[
I see, but that means changed weapons of warfare were the reason to why this would happen. And ofcourse bigger andmore organized armies made large wars possible. Gods of war are the by-product in that case. Maybe the invention of these gods of wars were to find justification for war. Meaning people wanted to start war even before their 'god' told them to do it instead of the other way around, interesting. Of course this is just speculation.[/quote]

That is all we can do given the age of the situation.

Depending on the community, some may have had the chicken before the egg, while others may have started with the egg.

All we can know for certain (possibly), is that we had about 20,000 years of relative peace and since we moved to the Gods of war, we have enjoyed 5,000 years of almost constant war.

Good old testosterone. Not.

Regards
DL



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18 Apr 2017, 11:23 am

Q: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
A: Do I personally have enough data to form an accurate assessment?

A couple years back I came across news about this situation;

Quote:
This website looks at what feminism in Islam can mean to different people and how it might challenge stereotypes both in Islam and feminism, as well as the perceived clash between the two.

http://www.islamandfeminism.org/

This seems to have evidence for both sides of the equation, http://www.newageislam.com/a/islam,-women-and-feminism

Are even college courses on it, at MIT no less.
Quote:
Graduate Consortium of Women's Studies
MIT
Courses
Feminism and Islam

Spring semester: Wednesdays, 2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
February 1, 2017 - May 10, 2017
*Meets at MIT, building 2 room 147
MIT Course Number: WGS.645

http://web.mit.edu/gcws/courses/16-17-islam.html

Hmm.
Quote:
I'm a feminist and I converted to Islam
Theresa Corbin, Special to CNN
Updated 8:47 AM ET, Tue October 14, 2014
Theresa Corbin, who converted to Islam at age 21, chooses to wear the hijab, or head scarf. Other Muslim women around the world wear various garments as part of their faith. Click through the gallery to learn more about them, and read Corbin's story to discover why they are worn.
...
I still wasn't convinced and replied, "Yeah, but women are like second class citizens in your faith?" The very patient Muslim lady explained that, during a time when the Western world treated women like property, Islam taught that men and women were equal in the eyes of God. Islam made the woman's consent to marriage mandatory and gave women the opportunity to inherit, own property, run businesses and participate in government.
She listed right after right that women in Islam held nearly 1250 years before women's lib was ever thought of in the West. Surprisingly, Islam turned out to be the religion that appealed to my feminist ideals.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/opinion/m ... vert-irpt/

Now, should I wonder whether the above is 'fake news'?


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18 Apr 2017, 11:29 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Q: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
A: Do I personally have enough data to form an accurate assessment?

A couple years back I came across news about this situation;
Quote:
This website looks at what feminism in Islam can mean to different people and how it might challenge stereotypes both in Islam and feminism, as well as the perceived clash between the two.

http://www.islamandfeminism.org/

This seems to have evidence for both sides of the equation, http://www.newageislam.com/a/islam,-women-and-feminism

Are even college courses on it, at MIT no less.
Quote:
Graduate Consortium of Women's Studies
MIT
Courses
Feminism and Islam

Spring semester: Wednesdays, 2:00 PM - 5:00 PM
February 1, 2017 - May 10, 2017
*Meets at MIT, building 2 room 147
MIT Course Number: WGS.645

http://web.mit.edu/gcws/courses/16-17-islam.html

Hmm.
Quote:
I'm a feminist and I converted to Islam
Theresa Corbin, Special to CNN
Updated 8:47 AM ET, Tue October 14, 2014
Theresa Corbin, who converted to Islam at age 21, chooses to wear the hijab, or head scarf. Other Muslim women around the world wear various garments as part of their faith. Click through the gallery to learn more about them, and read Corbin's story to discover why they are worn.
...
I still wasn't convinced and replied, "Yeah, but women are like second class citizens in your faith?" The very patient Muslim lady explained that, during a time when the Western world treated women like property, Islam taught that men and women were equal in the eyes of God. Islam made the woman's consent to marriage mandatory and gave women the opportunity to inherit, own property, run businesses and participate in government.
She listed right after right that women in Islam held nearly 1250 years before women's lib was ever thought of in the West. Surprisingly, Islam turned out to be the religion that appealed to my feminist ideals.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/opinion/m ... vert-irpt/

Now, should I wonder whether the above is 'fake news'?


You can search for all the data you like just as I have.

When I see price tags on Muslim women, as well as the other limitations Muslim men put on them, I cannot help but think of them as slaves.

If you want to see the thinking of Muslim women, look over the information on the apparel women are forced to wear and you will see just how much of slaves Muslim women are.

Regards
DL