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LoveNotHate
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04 Jun 2019, 2:22 am

VegetableMan wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
I have no advice. I'm simply saying that nobody has the right to impose their ideology on anybody else.

So, then you support non-binary people's right to self-identify, and not have a binary designation imposed on them?


I think everyone should identify as they wish. You're obviously being very cheeky. What is your solution to the problem?

It's a "problem" like any other medical condition.

Early screening, early diagnosis, early treatment helps.


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magz
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04 Jun 2019, 3:21 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
It's a "problem" like any other medical condition.

Early screening, early diagnosis, early treatment helps.
How do you imagine early screening for transgenderism? And what treatment do you imagine would help?

I'm genuinely curious what would early symptoms of being transgender look like.


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LoveNotHate
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04 Jun 2019, 4:51 am

magz wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
It's a "problem" like any other medical condition.

Early screening, early diagnosis, early treatment helps.
How do you imagine early screening for transgenderism? And what treatment do you imagine would help?

I'm genuinely curious what would early symptoms of being transgender look like.

The first step is to introduce LGBTQI curriculum into young child education.

Create an environment where teacher/parent/child feel comfortable taking about LGBTQI issues.

Remove shame, remove fear.

magz wrote:
what treatment do you imagine would help?

The treatment protocols would be set by LGBTQI doctor committees that decide "best treatment practices".


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magz
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04 Jun 2019, 5:03 am

Okay, when my 5yo daughter asked me who are gays, I said they are men who fall in love with other men, not women.
I believe a lot can be explained to children quite accurately without unnecessary emotional load.

But I'm still curious if a toddler boy showing interest in dolls and princess cartoons requires intervention or not - and if yes, then what kind of intervention.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jun 2019, 5:48 am

Boys, if they want to fit in with other boys, gravitate towards boys’ activities without “intervention.”

Being gay is much more complex than boys growing up playing with Barbies.

Moreover, many gay men are quite masculine.



magz
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04 Jun 2019, 6:14 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Boys, if they want to fit in with other boys, gravitate towards boys’ activities without “intervention.”

Being gay is much more complex than boys growing up playing with Barbies.

Moreover, many gay men are quite masculine.

I view sexual identity and gendered interests as completely separate topics, honestly, I can't understand why they fall under one LGBT label.


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jun 2019, 6:40 am

There is still the stereotype that gay men are invariably effeminate, and gay women are invariably over-masculine.

It is assumed that “upbringing” causes all this.



magz
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04 Jun 2019, 6:57 am

One of my friends told me, when his friend want to buy Lego Mindstorms in USA, the shopkeeper almost refused to sell it after learning it was for her daughter... Do people in USA really believe that playing with robots would turn a girl into a lesbian? Seems absurdally superstitious.


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TwilightPrincess
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04 Jun 2019, 7:00 am

magz wrote:
One of my friends told me, when his friend want to buy Lego Mindstorms in USA, the shopkeeper almost refused to sell it after learning it was for her daughter... Do people in USA really believe that playing with robots would turn a girl into a lesbian? Seems absurdally superstitious.


No. This situation is not at all typical.

People here tend to be more uncomfortable with boys playing with toys that are marketed for girls than the other way around. A shopkeeper might be more weird about selling a Barbie to a boy.



Wolfram87
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04 Jun 2019, 7:05 am

Heard about a situation in a Swedish daycare where one of the teachers (?) forbade the boys from playing with legos, on the grounds that playing with legos helped boys get an early understanding of engineering and thus had an unfair advantage over the girls later in life. So the boys who wanted to play with legos were barred from doing so, and the girls didn't really want to so they didn't.


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red_doghubb
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04 Jun 2019, 7:08 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is still the stereotype that gay men are invariably effeminate, and gay women are invariably over-masculine.

It is assumed that “upbringing” causes all this.


Because I live in a major US city, my best friend is gay, and my closest relative is gay, I know and spend time with a lot of gay people. Stereotypes exist for a reason and I have seen more effeminate men and masculine women than I can shake a stick at. Having said that, I know some - I'll use men in particular- that don't come across in the stereotypical way as "gay" - firefighters, law enforcement, scientists, professors...they "pass" for straight for any one who does not know them. (And some of them are incredible cooks!)

I've never heard this being ascribed to "upbringing". If anything the upbringing reinforces socially accepted gender norms. Unless you're saying upbringing causes everyone else to believe in these norms?



magz
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04 Jun 2019, 7:16 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
Heard about a situation in a Swedish daycare where one of the teachers (?) forbade the boys from playing with legos, on the grounds that playing with legos helped boys get an early understanding of engineering and thus had an unfair advantage over the girls later in life. So the boys who wanted to play with legos were barred from doing so, and the girls didn't really want to so they didn't.

My daughter would be all happy: all the Lego bricks exclusively for her :lol:
I've not seen the alleged Swedish experiments but I once witnessed a birthday party where all the grils fought with baloon swords but the boys were kept by their mothers from joining. I found it weird.

Yes, we also have this unequality that a girl doing something boyish is more accepted than the opposite. Thought parents and caretekers try to fill some gaps, so you can see e.g. a toddler boy with a teddy in a doll stroller - he wanted a stroller - fathers often push strollers - and teddy is not a doll, so it is okay for a boy ;) That kind of things.


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ZETATHON
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04 Jun 2019, 7:20 am

There are self evident biological reasons why there are two sexes, each with different physiology, psychology and social focus.

This is not socially constructed. If you want a concrete example, look up the "John Joan" case (aka David Reimer).

Males minds typically have a preferrence for abstract thought, where as female minds typically have a focus on the social. For example, a young boy will typically come to with something in his hand and say, "Look at this!". Whereas a young girl will be more likely come to you in a new dress and say, "Look at me!"

This can leave males, sometimes, unable to articulate their feelings and oblivious to what is happening around them socially.

That being said, there is a strong cultural element which can shape or override biology.

Many transwomen (and I've know a few), for example, were children who have grown up in an overwhelming female environment without any positive male role model to bind to. As a result, they take onboard female forms of feeling, behavior and thinking. I would certainly agree that genetics play a role also.

This suggests that there is a great degree of flexibility and adaptability in how genetics express themselves and we are not simply hardwired and fixed. This I see as, ultimately, a positive thing.

I'm personally very comfortable with trans, but having "71" genders is madness! Who gets to decide that there are 71 genders, for example? Why not 53, or 105? It is this made up nonsence which is socially constructed and it has no basis in reality.



magz
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04 Jun 2019, 7:22 am

Does being an abstract thinker with undivided attention make me less female?


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Last edited by magz on 04 Jun 2019, 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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04 Jun 2019, 7:23 am

ZETATHON wrote:
There are self evident biological reasons why there are two sexes, each with different physiology, psychology and social focus.

This is not socially constructed. If you want a concrete example, look up the "John Joan" case (aka David Reimer).

Males minds typically have a preferrence for abstract thought, where as female minds typically have a focus on the social. For example, a young boy will typically come to with something in his hand and say, "Look at this!". Whereas a young girl will be more likely come to you in a new dress and say, "Look at me!"

This can leave males, sometimes, unable to articulate their feelings and oblivious to what is happening around them socially.

That being said, there is a strong cultural element which can shape or override biology.

Many transwomen (and I've know a few), for example, were children who have grown up in an overwhelming female environment without any positive male role model to bind to. As a result, they take onboard female forms of feeling, behavior and thinking. I would certainly agree that genetics play a role also.

This suggests that there is a great degree of flexibility and adaptability in how genetics express themselves and we are not simply hardwired and fixed. This I see as, ultimately, a positive thing.

I'm personally very comfortable with trans, but having "71" genders is madness! Who gets to decide that there are 71 genders, for example? Why not 53, or 105? It is this made up nonsence which is socially constructed and it has no basis in reality.


Since gender is a spectrum, there probably are more than 71 genders.

Gender is not the same thing as biological sex.



red_doghubb
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04 Jun 2019, 7:24 am

magz wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Heard about a situation in a Swedish daycare where one of the teachers (?) forbade the boys from playing with legos, on the grounds that playing with legos helped boys get an early understanding of engineering and thus had an unfair advantage over the girls later in life. So the boys who wanted to play with legos were barred from doing so, and the girls didn't really want to so they didn't.

My daughter would be all happy: all the Lego bricks exclusively for her :lol:
I've not seen the alleged Swedish experiments but I once witnessed a birthday party where all the grils fought with baloon swords but the boys were kept by their mothers from joining. I found it weird.

Yes, we also have this unequality that a girl doing something boyish is more accepted than the opposite. Thought parents and caretekers try to fill some gaps, so you can see e.g. a toddler boy with a teddy in a doll stroller - he wanted a stroller - fathers often push strollers - and teddy is not a doll, so it is okay for a boy ;) That kind of things.



I think it's because a patriarchal society is less offended my masculine girls than effeminate boys. Like the latter is taken more personally. I don't think it's coincident to this that straight men love lesbian porn (but would not in a million yrs look at gay male porn).