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funeralxempire
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26 Jul 2020, 9:01 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
QFT wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.


This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.


John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.


Fair enough. He was a Jewish preacher, but he supposedly recognized Jesus as being the real deal. So that would make JTB classifiable as being among the first Christians. But you couldnt assign him to some later subdivision of Christianity.


If he's recognized as a prophet and revered more highly by Mandaeans it's likely that his teachings were more aligned with theirs than with Christianity. The story of him baptizing Christ is likely an attempt to portray Christ as the legitimate successor to John to those who revered John the Baptist.


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cyberdad
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26 Jul 2020, 9:05 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
QFT wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I think the Mandaeans revered John the Baptist but I don't think John the Baptist was one of them.


This.

Christians, Muslims, and Mormons, all revere John the Baptist. But that doesnt mean he WAS a Christian, Muslim, or a Mormon.


John the Baptist was a Christian because it is recorded in the Gospels how he proclaimed that Jesus is the Messiah.


Fair enough. He was a Jewish preacher, but he supposedly recognized Jesus as being the real deal. So that would make JTB classifiable as being among the first Christians. But you couldnt assign him to some later subdivision of Christianity.


How long was he christian for? a week before he was beheaded



The_Face_of_Boo
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27 Jul 2020, 5:48 am

funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Not all Orthodox churches agree on theology. The Russian and Greek churches do (Eastern Orthodox churches), but they don't agree with Oriental Orthodox churches (like Armenian and Ethiopian) or with the Church of the East.

Basically seconding what VS said.


That makes it a bit more interesting. So do you think you can break Orthodox churches into a few groups, with churches in each group agreeing with each other? Like Russian and Greek is in one of the groups, and then maybe there are some other groups? How many arch bishops are there by the way? Are Russian and Greek Orthodox under the same arch bishop or different ones? What about other Orthodox churches?

One thing I am really curious about is whether or not Armenian and Ethiopian would agree. Because I like them for two different reasons. I like Armenian because they are the oldest, and I like Ethiopian because they borrowed elements of Jewish law (such as kosher and sabbath). Actually there is a reason why the two would go hand in hand: in particular, according to the theory that Messianics and other Sabbaterians hold, Apostles likely kept the Jewish law but then the church got de-judaized by Rome. So, according to that theory, the oldest church would be more likely to keep it. However, I haven't heard of Armenian Orthodox keeping Jewish law, I only heard of Ethiopian Orthodox doing it. So that would be a reason right there for them to disagree. But could it be that they look past it and recognize each other anyway?

But here is more general question. How did it come about that different Orthodox groups ended up disagreeing? From what I know from church history, there was one dominant church up until approximately 1000 AD, and then there was a split into Orthodox and Catholic at around 1000 AD (the reason I said "one dominant church" rather than "one church" is that there were some sects such as Arians and others we talked about, but they were in the minority and no they weren't part of that church so it is not relevant to what I am talking about now). So are you saying that -- some time after 1000 AD -- there were some further splits within Orthodox church? If so, when did they happen?


Historically the Persian Empire was a place of refuge for Christian sects that rejected the Chalcedonian Christianity of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The Oriental Orthodox church is Miaphysite.

The Church of the East is Nestorian.

These splits all came before 1000 AD.

Image


Actually, the Greek/Russian Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox Church) are also officially called "Orthodox Catholic Church". They have more in common with Catholics than with the Oriental Orthodox.



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27 Jul 2020, 8:28 am

QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
certainly the Mandeans were influenced and follow him


Are Mandeans the ones killed in Masada? If yes, then how is it possible to combine your current statement that Mandeans believe in Jesus with your previous statement that the Jews killed in Masada didn't?

cyberdad wrote:
and there is evidence that JTB also influenced almost all sects of modern christianity (not just Baptism but also in terms of evangalism).


By JTB do you mean "John the Baptist"? If so, why would it be surprising?




https://youtu.be/11iPrDv8aBE The Jewish revolt against the Romans: Massada.


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funeralxempire
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27 Jul 2020, 2:57 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Actually, the Greek/Russian Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox Church) are also officially called "Orthodox Catholic Church". They have more in common with Catholics than with the Oriental Orthodox.


I think everything I said was consistent with the latter; the former I didn't know, but I'm not 100% familiar with all of the long form names of these organizations. I seem to recall hearing the term 'one Catholic and Orthodox Church' quite a bit when I went to Catholic school as a kid, but that was ages ago so I don't remember it clearly anymore.


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cyberdad
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27 Jul 2020, 6:54 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I think everything I said was consistent with the latter; the former I didn't know, but I'm not 100% familiar with all of the long form names of these organizations. I seem to recall hearing the term 'one Catholic and Orthodox Church' quite a bit when I went to Catholic school as a kid, but that was ages ago so I don't remember it clearly anymore.


Back in the 1970s it was "one Catholic church". These days the catholics and orthodox church are buddies against their doctrinal adversaries in the protestant churches

For example in Melbourne children of orthodox parents are permitted to enrol their kids in catholic schools. Protestants are discriminated against.



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27 Jul 2020, 7:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Protestants are discriminated against.


Can you elaborate on the specific ways in which Protestants are discriminated?



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27 Jul 2020, 7:20 pm

QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Protestants are discriminated against.


Can you elaborate on the specific ways in which Protestants are discriminated?


Here in Melbourne catholic institutions have a hierarchy when giving charity or school places etc....catholics first



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27 Jul 2020, 7:24 pm

i'm quite racist about my own race- or even religion-- (not necessarily by my original nationality but that too) --
many many times. esp because there's been a pattern over years and they are often very bigoted themselves in so many things, i don't class it as racism but as being wary because they think they can 'get one over you' if you let your guard down- since they see it as ok to be nasty/scam/etc someone of their own skin colour more it seems.
selective by situation, i suppose, but always after the fact.


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27 Jul 2020, 7:28 pm

Catholics have been discriminated against considerably by Protestant nations since the Reformation. And Protestants in Catholic nations.



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27 Jul 2020, 7:32 pm

I was reading an account of that by Mark Twain. IDK how much was exaggeration or how much was real, but it was about Ireland.


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27 Jul 2020, 7:42 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Catholics have been discriminated against considerably by Protestant nations since the Reformation. And Protestants in Catholic nations.


Much of the charity work in Australia and overseas seem to be run by Protestants.

Catholic missions in places like India have been accused of conversion. Catholic schools for example in India would attempt to indocrinate hindus.



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27 Jul 2020, 7:43 pm

blooiejagwa wrote:
i'm quite racist about my own race- or even religion-- (not necessarily by my original nationality but that too) --
many many times. esp because there's been a pattern over years and they are often very bigoted themselves in so many things, i don't class it as racism but as being wary because they think they can 'get one over you' if you let your guard down- since they see it as ok to be nasty/scam/etc someone of their own skin colour more it seems.
selective by situation, i suppose, but always after the fact.


Yes that's called parochialism.



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27 Jul 2020, 7:47 pm

blooiejagwa wrote:
i'm quite racist about my own race- or even religion-- (not necessarily by my original nationality but that too) --
many many times. esp because there's been a pattern over years and they are often very bigoted themselves in so many things, i don't class it as racism but as being wary because they think they can 'get one over you' if you let your guard down- since they see it as ok to be nasty/scam/etc someone of their own skin colour more it seems.
selective by situation, i suppose, but always after the fact.


Sorry if this question is too personal -- but by your race and religion, you are referring to what? I am not familiar with your background.



kraftiekortie
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27 Jul 2020, 8:08 pm

Catholics do a lot of charity work in the US. They are a distinct minority amongst Christians here.



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27 Jul 2020, 8:13 pm

I used to do mountain bike racing, but I don't race any more.