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War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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magz
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17 May 2022, 1:55 pm

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.
It reflects the scale of the threat and the ability of the threatned to organize themselves.
The scale of a threat from Iran and North Korea is greater. So if they think Russia is a greater threat that shows a bias against Russia.
Count nuclear warheads.
Then, for deeper understanding, count nuclear warheads during NATO's formative times.

QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
And speaking of US military bases, why doesn't Russia put military bases next to other countries (and if it did there would be a heavy opposition)? See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?
They do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ses#Russia
The only country that Russia has military base at that is NOT part of former Soviet Union is Syria. And look at how everyone is angry at Russia for that.

On the other hand, USA has plenty of military bases on the other end of the globe, and they aren't angry at the USA nearly as much.
Why do some have more friends than others?
That's a very universal question.
What are the most typical answers?


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17 May 2022, 1:57 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
The EU is a sensible and necessary idea, if it works well.
The EU and NATO would not be necessary if the former Soviet Union and Russia were not so aggressively imperialistic.

Russia is like a playground bully who chooses his victims for their lack of friends.

The EU and NATO are like groups of friends saying, "Come join us" to the bully's past, present, and future victims.


Well, *even if* Russia was a problem, it is not the only country that is a problem. What about Iran or North Korea? So why is there an organization, NATO, with sole purpose JUST to oppose Russia and not any of those other countries?

So maybe Putin is right in being offended that Russia is being discriminated against. Because it certainly looks that way.

Not so familiar with Iran. But dealing with North Korea does not require “one organization.”
North Korea's southern neighbor, South Korea, has a U.S. military presence. And China, North Korea's northern border, is always on guard.
North Korea's army will not be able to invade either.

But we don't have two pieces of bread huge enough to sandwich Russia.
On the contrary, many of the surrounding countries have their own military powers that are insignificant compared to Russia's.


North Korea was making nuclear threats though. I realize Russia did too, but that is a lot more recent. Prior to Putin making those threats I would have never thought that he would. But North Korea being dangerous in this way was a fact all along.



magz
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17 May 2022, 1:58 pm

NATO was created in 1949.
The nuclear threats it responded to are older than the whole North Korea.


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17 May 2022, 1:59 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
. . . many of the surrounding countries have their own military powers that are insignificant compared to Russia's.
And together, they may have just enough military power to make Russian leaders think twice about invading.  That is likely why Putin is so dead-set against NATO -- he knows that if he bullies one country, the entire NATO alliance is going to step in and slap him down.

But as long as he keeps to himself, there should be no trouble.



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17 May 2022, 2:00 pm

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
But they don't have special organization devoted to oppose either one of them. Yet they have NATO devoted to oppose Russia.
It reflects the scale of the threat and the ability of the threatned to organize themselves.
The scale of a threat from Iran and North Korea is greater. So if they think Russia is a greater threat that shows a bias against Russia.
Count nuclear warheads.
Then, for deeper understanding, count nuclear warheads during NATO's formative times.


But North Korea is more likely to use them, though.

I guess Putin making recent nuclear threats kind of changed my mind in this regard. But the point remains: prior to him making those threats, why was he regarded as more dangerous?

magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
magz wrote:
QFT wrote:
And speaking of US military bases, why doesn't Russia put military bases next to other countries (and if it did there would be a heavy opposition)? See how its unfair that US can do something that Russia can't?
They do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ses#Russia
The only country that Russia has military base at that is NOT part of former Soviet Union is Syria. And look at how everyone is angry at Russia for that.

On the other hand, USA has plenty of military bases on the other end of the globe, and they aren't angry at the USA nearly as much.
Why do some have more friends than others?
That's a very universal question.
What are the most typical answers?


As someone on WP, you should know that some people having more friends than others can be very unfair. Particularly when NTs have more friends than aspies. In fact if you look at my posts, you will see that their main theme is complaining how its unfair that I don't have friends due to my Asperger. That is actually part of the reason why I sympathize with Russia so much because I can sort of relate my isolation due to Asperger's and Russia's isolation due to losing Cold War.



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17 May 2022, 2:01 pm

QFT wrote:
North Korea was making nuclear threats though. I realize Russia did too, but that is a lot more recent. Prior to Putin making those threats I would have never thought that he would. But North Korea being dangerous in this way was a fact all along.
While China and Russia have global nuclear capability, North Korea has only said they are capable of attacking America, and even though America takes such threats seriously, North Korea is not, nor shall it ever be, as serious a threat to America as China and Russia.

You should really get a more formal education in Political Science.



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17 May 2022, 2:02 pm

QFT wrote:
North Korea was making nuclear threats though. I realize Russia did too, but that is a lot more recent. Prior to Putin making those threats I would have never thought that he would. But North Korea being dangerous in this way was a fact all along.

Nuclear bomb is the last resort. Threatening to launch it yields more value than actually launching it.
Most of the real action is still conventional troops.
Why is it necessary to have an organization to deal with North Korea's conventional forces when the other two nuclear powers are closely watching this matter of their own security?


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17 May 2022, 2:05 pm

Fnord wrote:
While China and Russia have global nuclear capability, North Korea has only said they are capable of attacking America


I thought they actually DO have nuclear weapons, do they not?



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17 May 2022, 2:05 pm

QFT wrote:
. . . you should know that some people having more friends than others can be very unfair. Particularly when NTs have more friends than aspies. In fact if you look at my posts, you will see that their main theme is complaining how its unfair that I don't have friends due to my Asperger. That is actually part of the reason why I sympathize with Russia so much because I can sort of relate my isolation due to Asperger's and Russia's isolation due to losing Cold War.
"Appeal to Pity" now?  Don't even try.

Russia would not be so isolated if it had not already stolen Crimea and is now trying to steal parts of Ukraine.  Nobody like a bully except other bullies.



magz
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17 May 2022, 2:06 pm

QFT wrote:
But North Korea is more likely to use them, though.

I guess Putin making recent nuclear threats kind of changed my mind in this regard. But the point remains: prior to him making those threats, why was he regarded as more dangerous?
Nato was created in 1949. It's older than Putin.
After Cold War, which was all about nuke-threatning, it was rather inactive until a direct threat showed up again.

QFT wrote:
As someone on WP, you should know that some people having more friends than others can be very unfair. Particularly when NTs have more friends than aspies. In fact if you look at my posts, you will see that their main theme is complaining how its unfair that I don't have friends due to my Asperger. That is actually part of the reason why I sympathize with Russia so much because I can sort of relate my isolation due to Asperger's and Russia's isolation due to losing Cold War.
Russia's isolation is not due to losing Cold War but due to acting agressively.
If them acting agressively is an efect of losing the Cold War, they need a therapist, not revenge on innocent people.


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17 May 2022, 2:07 pm

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
While China and Russia have global nuclear capability, North Korea has only said they are capable of attacking America.
I thought they actually DO have nuclear weapons, do they not?
Do they?  If so, what is their yield?  What is their delivery system?  How often have they successfully attacked another country with their nuclear weapons?



Last edited by Fnord on 17 May 2022, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 May 2022, 2:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
"Appeal to Pity" now?  Don't even try.


Thats not an excuse, thats actually the main issue here. I don't like being isolated due to Asperger and I also don't like Russia losing cold war.

Fnord wrote:
Russia would not be so isolated if it had not already stolen Crimea and is now trying to steal parts of Ukraine.  Nobody like a bully except other bullies.[/color]


As far as its taking Crimea it was only taking part of its territory that it used to have prior to Khruschev (who was Ukrainian) giving Krimea to Ukraine as a present.



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17 May 2022, 2:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
While China and Russia have global nuclear capability, North Korea has only said they are capable of attacking America.
I thought they actually DO have nuclear weapons, do they not?
Do they?  If so, what is their yield?  What is their delivery system?  How often have they successfully attacked another country with their nuclear weapons?


I haven't heard anyone question that they have them, until this post of yours right now.



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17 May 2022, 2:09 pm

QFT wrote:
As someone on WP, you should know that some people having more friends than others can be very unfair. Particularly when NTs have more friends than aspies. In fact if you look at my posts, you will see that their main theme is complaining how its unfair that I don't have friends due to my Asperger. That is actually part of the reason why I sympathize with Russia so much because I can sort of relate my isolation due to Asperger's and Russia's isolation due to losing Cold War.

Your sympathy is not shared with the victims around Russia.
Russia was "isolated" and its victims were slaughtered.


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magz
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17 May 2022, 2:12 pm

Most primitive nuclear warheads are easy to make if you have the materials, but delivery systems (rockets) are way more tricky.
That's why North Korea is far less threatning than it appears.


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magz
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17 May 2022, 2:18 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
As someone on WP, you should know that some people having more friends than others can be very unfair. Particularly when NTs have more friends than aspies. In fact if you look at my posts, you will see that their main theme is complaining how its unfair that I don't have friends due to my Asperger. That is actually part of the reason why I sympathize with Russia so much because I can sort of relate my isolation due to Asperger's and Russia's isolation due to losing Cold War.

Your sympathy is not shared with the victims around Russia.
Russia was "isolated" and its victims were slaughtered.

Yeah... Why all those raped, looted and slaughtered by Russian armies and all those persecuted and lied to by Russian governments don't like them now?


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