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16 Nov 2005, 4:04 pm
HarryofSheringham
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16 Nov 2005, 5:32 pm
Assassin
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16 Nov 2005, 6:12 pm
16 Nov 2005, 6:47 pm
I've been reading this thread on and off for a while. While I consider myself conservative, I'm not a fan of Bush, or many current American policies, and I don't believe that corporations should be allowed to exist because their entire purpose is to evade responsibility.
I suggest everybody read or reread 1984. Why? A real difference between the left and the right is the right sees 1984 as a horror story while the left sees it is a how-to manual. Of course, they also see themselves as the elite Inner Party.
Quote:
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
Most of this has been common themes of the left in the US since the '60s, and not having pride in the military or in your country are abnormal.
Quote:
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
This sounds suspisciouly like the modern left, in constant misinformation attacks against traditionalists as evil, backward, hateful, fascists, etc.
Quote:
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the peoples attention from other problems, to shift blame forfailures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choicerelentless propaganda and disinformationwere usually effective. Often the regimes would incite spontaneous acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, andterrorists. Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the peoples attention from other problems, to shift blame forfailures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choicerelentless propaganda and disinformationwere usually effective. Often the regimes would incite spontaneous acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, andterrorists. Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
This sounds more like the islamists than anything in America, short of the radical left.
Quote:
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
The old tired "Military-Industrial Complex" line that's been spewing from the left since the '60s. Enough already! Any country in history that has allowed the military to fail has been short-lived.
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5. Rampant sexism.
Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
Again sounding like a description of Islamo-fascism, western fascism does not historicly get along with tradition religion.
Quote:
6. A controlled mass media.
Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes excesses.
Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes excesses.
Sounds like the modern left or Islamo-fascism again.
Quote:
7. Obsession with national security.
Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting national security, and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting national security, and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
National Security is very important, but, "If we sacrifice a little freedom for a lot of safety we will soon have neither." - Benjamin Franklin
Quote:
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elites behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the godless. A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elites behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the godless. A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
This further shows the author's true colors, he hates both western power and religion. In reality, no western fascism regime has ever been close to religious authority.
Quote:
9. Power of corporations protected.
Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of have-not citizens.
Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of have-not citizens.
That's a sign of corruption, not fascism. Common in any form of government.
Quote:
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
Not at all, fascism thrives on the poor, and attacks the rich as theives. Fascism isn't about money, it's about power.
Quote:
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
That's totalitarianism, not fascism. Again, this "educated" author shows ignorance.
Quote:
12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. Normal and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or traitors was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. Normal and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or traitors was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
Sounds more like totalitarianism again.
Quote:
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
Cronyism and corruption are common in any failing government.
Quote:
14. Fraudulent elections.
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating an disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating an disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
Common in any corrupt society.
Mithrandir wrote:
Read Inquiry to the Urban Prospect, really scary.
Yes, Bush does have many theories similar with Fascism.
This is what you get when an uneducated person is the leader of a country.
Yes, Bush does have many theories similar with Fascism.
This is what you get when an uneducated person is the leader of a country.
Bush is Ivy-League educated, and very smart. I don't like the man at all, but he is very educated. Don't "misunderestimate" him
Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I agree wtih whoever mentioned it going on in schools. My school is less and less individualisitc every year. More carbon copies of the same backwards morals and beliefs than I'd like to see.
Agreed, been ongoing and planned by the NEA for years.
Yupa wrote:
Here's an overview of my new school (which you can tell I hate):
1.Some random stuff you choose to wear one morning will distract everyone from the curriculum (OMG Someone's wearing a tank top! We can't concentrate on our Psychology lesson!)
2.Don't chew gum at all (As I said before, nothing wrong with it if you either swallow it or throw it away when you're done)
3.Wear school colours, show your support by going to pep rallies, school football games, etc. and acting like a sheep
4.Act like a little angel at all times and do everything the teachers, coaches, and school admins say
5.If you miss more than four days, we're kicking your @ss out the door!
6.The bathroom in the band hallway is off-limits during lunch. Go around the band hallway, into the main hallway, up three flights of stairs, and then use the restroom there.
7.Organization is more important than education
8.The basic idea: Humans are made to be like drones in a hive, going back and forth for no reason other than that the queen bee says so.
1.Some random stuff you choose to wear one morning will distract everyone from the curriculum (OMG Someone's wearing a tank top! We can't concentrate on our Psychology lesson!)
2.Don't chew gum at all (As I said before, nothing wrong with it if you either swallow it or throw it away when you're done)
3.Wear school colours, show your support by going to pep rallies, school football games, etc. and acting like a sheep
4.Act like a little angel at all times and do everything the teachers, coaches, and school admins say
5.If you miss more than four days, we're kicking your @ss out the door!
6.The bathroom in the band hallway is off-limits during lunch. Go around the band hallway, into the main hallway, up three flights of stairs, and then use the restroom there.
7.Organization is more important than education
8.The basic idea: Humans are made to be like drones in a hive, going back and forth for no reason other than that the queen bee says so.
Been headed that way for years, turn out as many non-thinking submissives as possible.
RobertN wrote:
The insurgency is doing a good job in Iraq, and I take my hat off to them. The sooner the scumbag Americans are out the better.
Come on Sean, arrest me if you can.......
Come on Sean, arrest me if you can.......
I'm not sure who Sean is, but the 'insurgency' in Iraq is actually the front lines in the war of the West against Islamo-fascism. These 'insurgents' are mainly islamists from other countries that are waging jihad against the West. As for your "scumbag Americans" coment, you obviously have no appreciation for freedom. But how could you? You're a conditioned subject, not a citizen.
RobertN wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, the majority of insurgents in Iraq are simply ordinary Iraqis who despise the American presence in their country. They want the US and the UK out, and rightly so. Just think, all those guys that have been tortured in Abu Graihb - their friends and relatives feel angry and want revenge. So they get whatever weapons they can, and start rioting against the soldiers.
Again, you really don't know what you're talking about. I know Iraqis, they're sick of what they call "foreign invaders" that are killing civilians left and right. I read firsthand reports by military personel in Iraq, who pull non-Iraqi ID cards off of dead 'insurgents'irishmic wrote:
How about the Halliburton Talliban connection, and the Halliburton Iraqi Oil Connection.
These connections seem a lot more relevant with the current status of affairs in both regions.
We could also add the Halliburton Saudi connection.
These connections seem a lot more relevant with the current status of affairs in both regions.
We could also add the Halliburton Saudi connection.
If you remember, the Taliban was a darling of the Clinon administration because they all but stopped poppy production. It was the Bush administration that started taking a harder line with them prior to 9/11. And ever liberal shrill is screaming "HALLIBURTON" when it was Clinton that awarded many of the "no-bid" (which were bid upon) contracts to Halliburton. No mention that the #2 company involved in contracting in these countries has Diane Feinswine's husband on the board of directors.
Assassin wrote:
Actually... yes i am. I would not be suprised at all if Osama Bin Laden was a CIA operative and the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated as an excuse for certain western countries to invade the Middle East (where theres guess what? lots of oil) and adopt fascist policies
Perhaps you didn't see the article a few days ago about tinfoil hats actually increasing the intensity of the government mind control rays?
Seriously, Clinton castrated the CIA. What's left in the State Department is so radicly left-wing they make many of the leftists on this board seem moderate if not conservative.
Klytus wrote:
The "war on terror" as a unifying cause is not the reason Bush went to war in Iraq; rather it is the reason why leftists are so obsessively against the Iraq war. Since most leftists always oppose the status quo, they cannot bring themselves to offer even the tiniest amount of support for a war effort (the war on terror that is, not just the war in Iraq) that might run and run.
If the US government really decided to wage a "war on terror" as a unifying cause, then, for some people, it clearly hasn't worked. They must have known this was likely given the influence of idiots like Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore and other leftist media types.
If the US government really decided to wage a "war on terror" as a unifying cause, then, for some people, it clearly hasn't worked. They must have known this was likely given the influence of idiots like Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore and other leftist media types.
A beacon of truth in a sea of debris! Did you see the reports that Chomsky was on the Pentagon's payroll and Moore owns Halliburton stock?
Assassin wrote:
Yes. Warfare is what its called when goverments fight it out, terrorism is what its called when its civilian militants
No. It is terrorism when it is against civilian targets (suicide bombers at wedding parties for a recent example), it is warfare when it is against military targets (the 'insurgents' in Iraq attacking military installations is an example of 'civilians' waging warfare)
It's amazing to me how effective the leftist newspeak has been to younger people (I'm still under 30 but wow!). Entire generations raised on disinformation, on hatred fear and mistrust of righteous power.
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
16 Nov 2005, 8:12 pm
16 Nov 2005, 9:33 pm
16 Nov 2005, 11:58 pm
17 Nov 2005, 3:16 am
Machloket wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
Read Inquiry to the Urban Prospect, really scary.
Yes, Bush does have many theories similar with Fascism.
This is what you get when an uneducated person is the leader of a country.
Yes, Bush does have many theories similar with Fascism.
This is what you get when an uneducated person is the leader of a country.
Bush is Ivy-League educated, and very smart. I don't like the man at all, but he is very educated. Don't "misunderestimate" him
Machloket
I agree, he is "smart" perhaps talented and the rest of United States identifies with him as a leader (although not at the moment). I disagree with you on how educated he is but that doesn't matter. There are many people who are highly intelligent and have never gone to school.
Truthfully, most of us don't know Bush at all.
Does that mean we can't make conjectures and assumptions?
They are not ethical but in the case of free speech they are aloud.
By seeing Bush's record, and observing his actions, I deduce that his record is not entirely factual. I think he "won the lottery" but who cares what I think?
As for education, do you think its a possibility that "daddy's money" played a small part at least?
It is a possibility just, unlikely.
Maybe Al Gore "misunderestimated" Bush
I think this is getting off track.
To get back on track, what do you think Inquiry to Urban Prospects argument that the only way to have a sustainable future is to have a dictatorship?
Do you think the only way for us to survive is to have a military dictatorship?
I sure hope not
Assassin
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,676
Location: Not here, Not there, not anywhere.....
17 Nov 2005, 8:38 am
Machloket wrote:
It's amazing to me how effective the leftist newspeak has been to younger people (I'm still under 30 but wow!). Entire generations raised on disinformation, on hatred fear and mistrust of righteous power.
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
So, you agree that Britain is turning fascist, and you look forward to it happening?
pray that i never come to texas...
Assassin
Veteran
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,676
Location: Not here, Not there, not anywhere.....
17 Nov 2005, 8:43 am
17 Nov 2005, 11:26 am
17 Nov 2005, 9:08 pm
18 Nov 2005, 12:16 am
Assassin wrote:
Machloket wrote:
It's amazing to me how effective the leftist newspeak has been to younger people (I'm still under 30 but wow!). Entire generations raised on disinformation, on hatred fear and mistrust of righteous power.
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
So, you agree that Britain is turning fascist, and you look forward to it happening?
pray that i never come to texas...
Britain has always been fascist to some extent, that is why Britons are "subjects" not "citizens"
The radical change I'm referring to is the coming of Mashiach.
Machloket
18 Nov 2005, 7:53 am
18 Nov 2005, 7:54 am
Assassin
Veteran
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,676
Location: Not here, Not there, not anywhere.....
18 Nov 2005, 8:55 am
Machloket wrote:
Assassin wrote:
Machloket wrote:
It's amazing to me how effective the leftist newspeak has been to younger people (I'm still under 30 but wow!). Entire generations raised on disinformation, on hatred fear and mistrust of righteous power.
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
Seeing the attitudes of many Brits on this board, it's not surprising that modern England is a disarmed society with perhaps the highest violent crime rate in the world.
At least I have my faith that radical change is soon coming.
Machloket
So, you agree that Britain is turning fascist, and you look forward to it happening?
pray that i never come to texas...
Britain has always been fascist to some extent, that is why Britons are "subjects" not "citizens"
The radical change I'm referring to is the coming of Mashiach.
Machloket
Coming of what?
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